| Tynan Sylvester |
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I think this idea is more interesting when you apply it to game development skill rather than game playing skill.
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| Curtis Turner - IceIYIaN |
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Hardware and InterwebZ plays a huge role in this too. I wasn't aware of how bad a wireless modem(Even with a dedicated wire and nobody using your wireless. They need an off button -_-) was until I got one. Living alone was way easier to play when your sister/niece aren't using the phone(Which causes static) or surfing the net.
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| E McNeill |
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The tone of this article seems a little nasty. "You suck. In fact, you suck so bad you don't even know you suck!" I get the argument underneath, but I wish it could've come in a less accusatory form.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is fascinating, but not relevant in any general way to games. If someone crushes the single-player challenges and then finds himself or herself out of depth in multiplayer, that speaks more to the different natures or difficulties of single-player and multiplayer modes than to the total incompetence of the player. It seems to me that the player really *is* skilled at the single-player game, especially since the game itself is providing the standardized metric of skill. Your argument seems to only apply to the clueless subset of players that refuse to acknowledge the greater possible skill of others, and I don't think that this group is all that large. |
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| Mike Rentas |
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I think there's a disconnect between your initial statement of the phenomenon ("I rock at the single player in this game, I should be awesome at multiplayer too!") and the psychology you're discussing. I'd say the problem has more to do with the single player and multiplayer games being entirely different beasts.
A campaign will give you a basic idea for the rules of the game, but it doesn't teach you a damn thing about the limits of those rules, or how people will learn to exploit them. It doesn't teach you the layouts of multiplayer maps. It doesn't teach you how to deal with someone camping your spawn point, or cannon rushing you. Look at PVP in World of Warcraft - the gear, talent specs, and play styles used are *completely separate* from what people use for endgame raid content. Both are considered "high level" play, but they have almost nothing to do with each other. Moving up or down a league in the Starcraft 2 ladder means you need to unlearn everything you were doing to win and figure out the version of the game this new set of people is playing. I think an examination of the Dunning-Kruger effect in the pure context of competitive multiplayer games could be interesting (could it be related to the reason so many people feel the need to spew racist vitriol on xbla?), but I don't think it has much to do with the single player to multiplayer skill gap. Unless maybe the game designers who are building the campaign levels are overestimating their ability to include elements that will make players experts at headshots :) |
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| Justin Nearing |
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The Dunning-Kruger effect may give you the expectation that you would be good at multiplayer, but defining the actual differences between single-play and multi-play is a concept that should warrant more attention by developers.
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| Daniel Martinez |
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The same goes for the psychological effects the brain undergoes during difficult exams. As a personal example: I felt I was doing relatively well in the GMAT and I ended up with an unsatisfactory score. Later in the year, I felt I was performing poorly in an accounting exam, and I did well.
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| Jeffrey Marshall |
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When I started playing multiplayer games online in 1996 with Warcraft 2, it was pretty easy to win even though I had only single player experience. Gradually, things changed and the vast majority of players were replaced by those with obsessive compulsive type personalities who played their game a lot and were very serious.
Even in 1998, winning at Starcraft or Total Annihilation online was possible with very little practice. But by 2000, you could not expect to jump into any online RTS game and win without significant multiplayer experience. It remains that way to this day. This article has many good points, but fails to address the possibility that online competition is at a significantly high level not reflective of the average person. |
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| Dave Long |
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Some interesting ideas here, but there's also the issue that skill is all relative. From the example provided about the person in the above article, relative to their peers, they were skilled. If they could play through and complete the game in the second hardest setting, then in most cases, relative to the vast majority of the single-player playerbase (most of whom never complete the campaign at all) then they _were_ skilled.
It's all relative - someone might be the best 100-metre sprinter in Italy, but put them up against Usain Bolt and they'll get hammered. That doesn't mean they're not a good runner. It's all a scale. It's very likely that, if skill was defined as the top 20% or so of players who had played the game, the player in the example _was_ skilled. However, were they able to compete with people that play the game competitively regularly, and possibly put in tens of hours more a week into it? Not likely. But I think a lot of the 'hardcore' forget that they are a _very_ niche group. Sure, plenty won't have the skill they do, but that doesn't make them unskilled unless one is taking a very narrow perspective, likely derived from the 'hardcore' wanting to prop up their own egos. So, in short, the above article fails to define 'skilled' in any meaningful way (although it implicitly suggests such a narrow degree of skill that it probably wouldn't be particularly useful unless examining the issue purely from the perspective of organised competitive gaming), and that makes the rest of its argument pointless. It's also playing the 'straw man' a bit (or the author has a fairly limited range of people they game with/against). For one, I don't know too many people who fall into the above example (well, not too many people that are older than 18, to be fair ;)) - most people with some gaming experience know that the step between 'experienced casual' to 'competitive in leagues' is huge, and expected to get stomped early. The implication from the article that most people who are unskilled don't know that they're unskilled only holds true for those that have fairly limited gaming experience, or those that are very young and seeing the world through a emotional filter that's different to those of adults. On another note, one thing that the discussion is missing is a discussion of 'smack talk' - there _are_ plenty of adults (or semi-adults, if we're looking at maturity from the perspective of emotional development) who will talk themselves up, but still expect to get stomped a bit early. This is due to plenty of other psychological effects, and probably makes it a bit trickier to judge what's actually going on. I do think it's commendable that the author has had a crack at looking a bit deeper into the way people think and understand their world about them :). The article's got a few gaping holes in its logic, but it's a good start at least :). |
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| Ryan Marshall |
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The consensus seems to be that, though your perception of your ability is governed by the psychological effect upon which this article focuses, actual lack of skill stems more from fundamental differences in the single-player game and serious multi-player. (If you can beat your friends, it is because you are all handicapped equally in trying to follow the single-player methods.)
I would take this one step further and say that the problem isn't how the single-player campaign fails to teach for multi-player, but that it's a design flaw for those to be so different in the first place. If anyone is un-familiar with the Pokemon tournament scene, you'd probably be suprised at how little you get out of mastering the single player game. Even such basic concepts as which mons are strong or weak have to be re-learned because of the tier system and the metagame, and that's before even getting into things like Effort Values and breeding chains. I would argue that such arcane (deep) gameplay serves as a terrible barrier against entry, especially to any who actually enjoy the core (solo) aspect of the series, and we'd all be better off if they removed those from the multiplayer aspect rather than trying to force them upon the single-player. (OR alternatively, make them a fundamental part of the single player, so that they become intuitive and are no longer a barrier to the multi-player; I don't mean to come out against specific mechanics, so much as the unwarranted difference in mechanics between two halves of the same game.) |
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| Maciej Bacal |
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"You can brute force your way through a campaign scenario in Starcraft II using just Marines instead of appropriately countering the enemy's army build."
OK, this is just a detail, but if you played SC2 you'd know that you can easily beat entry level players with only Marines, with some variation of the build, you can get to the top with it, as for proffessional SC2, look up MarineKing. And i've never considered the single player campagin to be any kind of a skill check for a multiplayer game, i don't know anybody who has, actually, it would be silly. The Dunning-Kruger effect is fairly well known in the gaming community, but for all the reasons not mentioned in this article. Mainly in team games like DotA, where people constantly complain about how awful their team is. |
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| Jeffrey Crenshaw |
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Another interesting phenomenon is the likelihood that you will be playing someone better than you, even if you are in a high percentile. I imagine the pareto principle applies: 20% of a game's players put 80% of the total community hours into the game. Even if you are at the 80th percentile in skill, there are very good odds that you will lose most of your matches as you will be matched against these players, unless some sort of ranked match making is in place. The people who are best at the game got that way because they play all the time, and likely will keep playing, whereas most people worse than you only played multiplayer once or play it rarely, so while you're likely to be able to beat them, you're unlikely to catch them during the sparse time they are on.
I bring this up as a counter talking point to the article: You might be surprised that you lose a lot when you start playing multiplayer, but you might still be well above average despite losing most of your games. |
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| Terry Matthes |
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Good little article! I really do believe the Dunning-Kruger effect is a major force in online (or any competitive game) Look at a title like Street Fighter. Each match-up of characters has it's own tricks and techniques to master. Less skilled players get beat by their lack of knowledge more than skill.
Without knowing enough of the game's details players form broken strategies. They lure themselves into false securities because 80% of the time your strategy works, but when someone beats you you chalk it up to lag, luck, the game being stupid, whatever... You haven't even realized you're strategy is flawed because you're still assuming you know more than you do. I don't understand how people can miss this as an element in multiplayer games. It seems impossible to have one without the other. A lot of doing bad at multiplayer games come from a misunderstanding of your goals and objectives. Philosophy can play a great roll improving your skill in any game. There are people out there who won't stop talking about this stuff. Sean Plott aka. Day[9] is one of them. So many of his videos are just philosophy lessons dressed up as multiplayer advice. Plug ==> http://www.day9.tv PS. You're losing at Starcraft because you're playing Terran. Long live the hive! ^_^ |
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| Matthew Williams |
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yeah then there is this kind of crap goin...just to throw it in the mix
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/167781/Indepth_Extravagant_cheating_via_Direc t_X.php |
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| Jack Kerras |
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I don't really think that forcing people to learn anything is going to help at all.
There's another concept that fits alongside this particular psychological phenomenon that makes it make -even more- sense: Unconscious Incompetence Conscious Incompetence Conscious Competence Unconscious Competence This is a spread of different states of being. For the most part, people fit squarely in the first category; they're playing a game and they feel like they're pretty good at it. This isn't really due to a lack of gameplay understanding, though! Lack of understanding contributes, but these folks will think they're hot shit even if they lose all the time. These are the folks who are constantly blaming others for their failures, and lack the metacognitive capability to understand that they are not only poor at the game, but -not learning- specifically because they do not -think- they're poor at the game. They grade themselves high (and THINK they're in the top few percent of players) because people like to feel good about themselves. In the second state, you reach a turning point. Conscious incompetence means that someone has grokked that they are not, in fact, hot shit. This is the day in Battlefield or any of the various MOBAs where you figure out that your abysmal KDR is not due to the fact that you get no support, but rather because you lose fights; whether you can't decided quickly and effectively whether to cut your losses or you simply don't have the reflexes or skills to execute your plans properly, you -realize- that you are doing poorly and can therefore strive to improve yourself. In the third state, you're actually getting up there. With focus and dedication, you can elevate your game, but it takes honest effort in order for you to maintain that state. You're still learning and improving all the time, but now you're getting to the point where skill caps could conceivably be reached, and distracting factors, unusual enemy strategies, or other issues can seriously hamper your ability to maintain your game. Here you're actually starting to get good, but it takes real dedication to maintain it. In the fourth state, you've completed your proverbial or literal ten thousand hours. Your mastery of whatever skill you've been attempting to learn (this can be applied to anything) is complete, and despite the fact that you're still able to learn, you can carry on a conversation while you top charts in Battlefield, you start to develop a spider sense about ganks in MOBAs, and you find yourself waiting precisely the right amount of time between refires of a semi-automatic weapon before you fire again, minimizing downtime and 'jams' from attempting to fire too fast... without even really thinking about it. In this state, you no longer require real focus in order to maintain a high level of play; you've done whatever you're doing so many times that it is second nature to call missing, to strategize with agility and cunning, or to put your crosshair in the right place at the right time. You're still learning (this is always true) but now it is no longer an effort to grasp every new skill; you can effectively assimilate interesting strategies that you see others use without having to thoughtfully deliberate on each, and your game evolves almost on its own even when you just hop on a game to fuck around. Dunning-Kruger is -sort of- about learning, but the real kicker is figuring out that you -aren't- good at things. It's not a question of grokking specific skills or learning -how- to play a game; the phenomenon is accomplished by accepting that you have a lot to learn, not specifically by learning itself. You can learn in almost all cases, but until you realize that human learning (and indeed almost all learning) is based on play, and all your playing can be used to learn, you're not going to break past that first state of not knowing how bad you are. Most players never do. Most -people- never do; accepting that you're not just inherently great is a big step towards maturing as not only a player, but as a person, and that degree of self-awareness is hard-won. When that first step is taken from unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence, very often people will see in broad strokes that their incompetence spreads to other areas, that they are not Superman, and that work and effort can improve them. Upping your game requires the humility to realize that you game needs to improve. Specific learning (and teaching) cannot instill this important truth; it is partially a matter of game knowledge, but it is fundamentally a matter of SELF-knowledge. |
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| Mike Griffin |
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Thankfully I still kick ass in multiplayer. Across a wide range of modes/server/player/clan types, etc., so it's not just me selecting specific servers I know I can own. I better laugh it up now in my mid-30s, because these reflexes and quick, adaptive reactions won't be with me for much longer, haha. Sadface.
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