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Blogs

  RPGs and Suckage
by Lars Doucet on 04/12/11 11:31:00 am   Expert Blogs   Featured Blogs
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The following blog was, unless otherwise noted, independently written by a member of Gamasutra's game development community. The thoughts and opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of Gamasutra or its parent company.

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(Cross-posted on my personal site, fortressofdoors)

As part of our ongoing series on our new game Defender's QuestI'd like to talk about suckage. 

 When you say "This SUCKS!" you're usually not saying "I hate this." There's a little more to it than that.

 

 

Here's how it usually goes down:

  1. You are passionate about a type of thing (film noir, first-person-shooters)
  2. You have expectations of a particular thing of that type (Casablanca, Call of Duty)
  3. That thing fails to meet your expectations
  4. That thing SUCKS

There's a few corollaries to the above.  First of all, terrible things that you don't care about generally don't "SUCK."  When you see people on forums ranting and raving about how awful the latest Call of Duty* or Dragon Age* game is, it's because they're deeply invested  in those games in particular and the genres they belong to in general.  You won't see them complaining about, say, the new Barbie Horse Adventures game, even if it's awful.  As the old saying goes, "The opposite of love is not hate, it's apathy."

 

*Not passing any judgment on those series here. Just noting the perennial phenomenon of strongly held negative opinions.

 

Secondly, the more you care about something, the more it sucks when it disappoints you.  Furthermore, your emotional investment and expectations give the letdown a tinge of betrayal.  You don't just feel like the experience was bad - it was bad when it should have been and promised to be good.

 

This isn't a particularly new theory.  The game designer, however, must understand this reaction in his audience if he hopes to control or mitigate it.  The tricky part comes when you design for a genre that is a minefield of conflicting expectations and red-hot passion.  I am, of course, talking about RPG's.

 


 

Designing for any mature genre is difficult, as they all have passionate fans with conflicting opinions.  RPG's present a specific challenge, however, due to a few unique properties:

 

RPG's:

  1. ...touch a raw nerve
  2. ...lack a centrally defining mechanic
  3. ...are divided into strong sub-genres
  4. ...traditionally bill themselvs as "EPIC"
  5. ...are complex by design

Let's see what each of these points can teach us about player expectations.

 

 

  1. RPG's touch a raw nerve

    Them's fightin' words!


    The degree of emotional investment RPG fans exhibit strikes me as unique.  We are very protective of our genre and hold lengthy discussions of whether or not a certain game even "counts" as an RPG.

    This article's point isn't to decide who's right and who's wrong - everyone has different taste and expectations, and that's okay.  But every fan is a potential customer, and convincing them that our game doesn't suck has a lot to do with managing their expectations.  A game they might have otherwise liked will be dismissed ifs framed in the wrong way, and given the heated passions of RPG fans, if your game is deemed to suck it will suck hard.

    I think there's a reason that we argue about RPG's so much - it's the same reason we argue about "art" - we all disagree about what the word even means.


     

  2. RPG's lack a centrally defining mechanic


     Everyone has a different idea about what makes an RPG an RPG.  Common things include leveling up, story, "role-playing", and exploration.  However, every time someone offers up "RPG's are all about X" someone inevitably answers with, "Are you saying Y, which lacks X, isn't an RPG?"

    First, there's experience points and levels.  This can't be the defining characteristic, as plenty of RPG's do without them - Shadowrun and Ultima Online being great examples.  As for story, Dungons & Dragons can be run as a mechanics-only hack n' slash campaign, and procedural games like Nethack have little to no author-imposed narrative whatsoever. 

    Surely, role-playing defines "Role-Playing Games," right?  First we have to decide what we mean by "role-playing".  Let's limit the term to exclude things like "playing the role of Mario" in Super Mario Bros.  In this case "role playing" becomes nearly synonymous with "acting in character."  But if acting in character defines "role playing games", then most RPGs are excluded, including D&D campaigns with laid-back Dungeon Masters. 

    Finally, let's consider exploration.  Almost all RPG's feature exploration in some sense of the word, but tactical RPG's like Final Fantasy Tactics and Bahamat Lagoon certainly don't, and exploration isn't always front and center in the games that include it - it's often a side dish.

    So what, if anything, do all RPG's have in common? Take a look at this chart*:


    *This chart is incomplete, simplified, and probably leaves out all your favorite games :)

    There's only one feature that all the games on my list have in common - loot.  Equipment.  Stuff.  But does this define RPG's? Surely not - plenty of other games that we don't consider to be "RPGs" have stuff - even swords and armor.


    Now, let's compare that to this chart for First-Person-Shooters:



    FPS's are clearly defined by a first-person view and shooting.  It doesn't really matter what else you tack on or what conventions you leave out.  Even Portal can be clearly defined as a first-person shooter, even though your gun is (usually) non-violent and mostly just used for traversing space.

    RPG's are not defined by a few central mechanics, whereas most other video game genres are: (Real Time Strategy, Point-and-click Adventure, Tower Defense, 4X Strategy).  Instead,  "RPG" has become a vague term that surrounds certain groupings of mechanics and themes, but without a strictly definable formula.


    This is by no means a bad thing, nor does it make the term "RPG" entirely subjective.  It does mean, however, that each player walks around with their own personal definition of what defines an "RPG," making it interesting to manage expectations, and dividing the genre into several factions.


    EDIT:
    Plenty of people are pointing out in the comments that if you condense loot, skils, and experience into "character growth" then that is indeed shared by all the games on my chart. I can agree with that, but I can still think of examples that break this as a NECESSARY mechanic for the genre. Play a pen-and-paper role playing game purely through role-playing and acting, with no dice rolls or level-ups or skills or anything, and you'll still have what everyone would agree is an "RPG."

    Still, I'll concede the point that a central focus on character growth is about as close as it gets.


  3. RPG's are divided into clearly defined sub-genres

    Perhaps because the mother term "RPG" is so vague, the genre has split into clearly defined sub-groups, each with their own conventions.  JRPG's usually feature strongly authored narratives with parties of colorful characters and turn-based battles.  Western CRPG's generally offer more branching narratives and a tighter focus on the main character who represents "you."  Tactical RPG's feature large parties, tactical battle systems, and narrative interspersed between missions.

    Avernum 6 vs. Final Fantasy 6


    A tension arises between the looseness of the genre itself and the tightness of its sub-genres.  It's difficult to release a new kind of RPG because the game could be pigeon-holed as a member of one of the sub-genres and judged by those standards and expectations, rather than on its own merits.



  4. RPG's traditionally bill themselves as "EPIC"

    Nothing invites both high expectations and harsh criticism like calling your game an "epic experience." The 1997 commercial for Final Fantasy VII is a pretty good example of this kind of marketing.  This is so common that even RPG's that don't bill themselves as "epic" risk being judged by "epic" standards.

    Gameplay - 60+ hours
    Story - 30 minutes 

     

    This leads to a weird problem.  Most of the time spent in 60+ hour RPG's is filler, and plenty of fans will welcome the opportunity to ditch this crap.  However, if the designer dispenses with all the crap, the game might be considered "too short" since the expectation for an "epic" (ie, long) experience still lingers.


  5. RPG's are complex by design

    The simpler a game is, the harder it is to call it an RPG.  Although there is no common set of mechanics to all RPG's, there is a common structure - and that's several systems linked together by a meta-game. The nature and depth of these systems varies from title to title.


    This results in RPG's having a large number of "core" mechanics.  Furthermore, RPG's have a tendency to add on extra "bonus" systems such as mini-games, crafting systems, etc, to add more "meat" to the game.  Design becomes more difficult as systems increase in number, not only because the designer's attention is divided, but because the number of interactions between systems grows exponentially*.

    It's just plain hard to make a good RPG.  I would argue that it's harder to make a good RPG than it is to make a good game of most other genres.  This means, of course, that there's a lot crappy RPG's out there.

    *This is why I always tell beginning game design students to avoid designing RPG's - there's simply so much going on at once that there's no hope of success until you have years of experience under your belt and have acquired an understanding of each of these systems in isolation.

Summing up


New RPG's are met with high expectations, passionate fans, and diverse standards of judgment. Some would look on this as a reason to avoid the genre entirely, but I see it as an opportunity. The lack of a single standard  dictating what all RPG's must be keeps the genre from stagnating and provides opportunities for interesting ideas to grow and flourish. This quality is what I believe will save the genre from stagnation and decline.

 

Working against this trend is the establishment of hard sub-genres. Of course, nobody handed these delineations to us from on high. They arise naturally, and there's nothing wrong with that. The risk is only of these boxes becoming so tightly bound in players' and designers' minds that it keeps new ideas from flourishing in the fertile fields outside of them. It's up to us, therefore, as designers, to make games that push these boundaries and explore new areas.

 

Fortunately, things are looking up.  The advent of digital distribution, an explosion of diversity in price points, and the growth of the indie movement gives us a new set of tools to manage what players expect our games to deliver.  The world looks different now that every RPG no longer costs $60 dollars, can only be found in stores, and was designed by either BioWare, Square, or a few others.

 

Games like RecettearDesktop DungeonsPuzzle QuestAvernum, and Torchlight show us that RPG's are still a fertile field.  If we designers can send the right signals about what to expect through pricing, platform, marketing, design, and more, then maybe we can design RPG's that won't "suck" so bad in the minds of our players.

 

Just some thoughts :)

 

-Lars out.

 
 
Comments

Tim Tavernier
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Agree with some points, disagree with other points but most of the time screaming inside "but it's right in front of you!!!".



Look at your comparison chart... Loot seemingly is the most common entity in RPG's. Because of the single common mechanic in RPG's: getting stronger. RPG's are games where player growth is institutionalized as a central game-mechanic. You find loot so you can get better stuff/abilities so you can kill/beat the enemies easier (or at all) and the best way to get loot is beating enemies.



And RPG's are not complex by design. The first Legend of Zelda was a very simple game, but still an RPG (an arcade-RPG!). CRPG's are complex by design because the designers made them complex, Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest were made to counter said complexity. DQ was indeed just beating enemies, getting loot, getting better gear, getting better stats, enemies die faster, rinse and repeat.



RPG's are actually the best venue to learn game-making, the challenge being to make one that's very simple...but still hard to master.

Darren Tomlyn
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Hi Tim - (You read the other posts in my blog yet?).



The problem with cRPG's is really simple:



They're NOT. Because of that, they've become hamstrung by what people PERCEIVE them to be, which is of course, (too) subjective.



Such subjectivity HAS coalesced somewhat as time and computer games have progressed and evolved, but because of the inconsistent nature of people's perceptions of games in general, cRPG's have never, and still arn't, being viewed and understood in a manner consistent with computer games in general.



Games are about WRITING stories. The problem with the term role-playing game, is that it's not about the stories written, but the medium and method being used to do so. Outside of computers, this is not a problem, but computers ARE the relevant medium here, and so such a perception is now inconsistent.



Of course, if every game in which a player controlled ('played the role of') a character, was considered an RPG then it might be consistent, but that's not how things have gone - not how the term is used - and so the term itself, just like 'video game' is causing problems just by it's use and existence in a manner that doesn't really work.



Which isn't to say that the term RPG in computer games does NOT have anything useful to represent - if it didn't it wouldn't be used at all. The problem, is that because of such a label, and the perception of what it represents, what it SHOULD be used to represent, isn't truly recognised in a consistent manner - which is why WHAT is considered to be a cRPG is all over the place, and the reason for this blog post.



The first step to recognising WHAT it is that cRPG's represent, is to concentrate SOLELY on the story that is WRITTEN. Stories that are TOLD, have no place in the definition of games, so cannot be used to determine their type. Plot/narrative/setting etc. therefore do not define cRPGs.



The next step, which is a large problem for most people, is to recognise that, due to the flexible and widespread nature of cRPG's in general - the BASIC GAME-PLAY itself - from (action) adventure (Zelda!), to turn-based strategy, to first-person shooter - also has NO place in it's definition - such types of game are already defined for what they are, separately from cRPG's.



What defines a cRPG, therefore exists above and beyond such basic game-play - and is a story that must be WRITTEN.



Loot, is NOT a story that is written, it is a story that is told - usually involving things being competed for, and so therefore tends to become a competition, not a game. It CAN be used to ENABLE a written story, but this is an element that has yet to be used to its full potential (if at all).



The one, single, element we seem to be left with is simple:



Character DEVELOPMENT. (Which usually involves 'experience points' etc.).



But how many 'cRPG's' do NOT have such a story that can be WRITTEN, and is in fact TOLD instead? Such games, cannot be considered cRPG's at all, since they are not consistent with being another type of game, above and beyond their basic game-play, which is what they should, and must, be defined by.



But if such character development is OPTIONAL, then how can it also be used to define the game? It shouldn't of course...



So, based on all that, we therefore wind up with a basic definition of cRPG:



'Systematic (since it needs to be a central tenet to the game in order to define it), user-defined (since it must be a written story), character development (the element that defines this type of game), above and beyond the basic game-play (since that is a story defined elsewhere), and setting, (since that is a story that is told, and also defined elsewhere).



But we have a couple of further problems.



The first, is that such game-play mechanics are NOT limited to characters! They can also be used with 'things' such as spaceships, or cars, or anything else a player can control in a similar manner in a computer game. This is why calling them 'role-playing' games, is such a problem - the written story they're defined by, is NOT just about characters, and therefore 'role-playing' at all.



The second problem, is that such 'character' development, in itself, means very little. The reason for this is simple:



Character development in cRPG's is a MEANS to an END, not an END in itself!



The character development means NOTHING, if it doesn't affect the game-play - the overall written story itself.



So what we wind up with is:



'Systematic, user-defined GAME-PLAY development, above and beyond the basic game-play and setting'.



THIS is probably THE MOST POWERFUL game-play mechanic computer games have to offer!



If anyone thinks that ANY game today has even come close to using this to it's full potential, then THINK AGAIN.



Of course, we don't just have to limit it to the game-play itself either - there's also the game-play mechanics, and setting etc, that can all be affected in a similar manner.



Maybe NOW, you'll have GLIMPSE of what I see as being possible?

Lars Doucet
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Well, it depends. I would argue that a defining characteristic has two properties:



1) It is shared by all items of that group

2) It provides an exclusive definition



All first-person shooters are first person perspective and about shooting. And there are few, if any, games that have those two properties that are defined as something else.



Now, it's certainly true that RPG's have character growth in common - I should probably amend the chart to reflect that. However, plenty of other games that we generally don't consider RPG's have character growth, too.



Metroid comes to mind. So does any game with upgrades over the course of the entire game. I don't think upgrade systems BY THEMSELVES are what makes RPG's RPG's.



Also, I've rarely seen the Legend of Zelda categorized as an RPG. Obviously, plenty of people (including yourself) would consider it one, but most people would call it an "action-adventure" game.



I feel that the fact that this widespread disagreement of whether Zelda counts as an RPG or not only serves to bolster my points.



Furthermore, by complexity I mean - not reducible to a single core system. There are usually several systems in play in almost any RPG. Each one of them might not be all that deep, but the multifarious nature makes the system a "complex" system, by my usage of the word "complex."



Finally, I would argue that Zelda was MASTERFULLY complex by the standards of games at the time. Most games of that era expected you to play through in a single setting, whereas that game had a save system, multiple dungeons, an inventory system, an overworld, environmental interaction, and more.



As for what's the "best" venue for game making, I agree that simplicity is the best. I'll just say that I've seen a lot of great student platformers, simple action games, etc, and plenty of terrible, unfinished, and ultimately abandoned student RPG's. You have to learn to walk before you can run, let alone fly.

J awee
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There are many RPGs that allow the player to shoot and move and can be run in first person, as well as those RPGs that are single or multiplayer (only mentioning these characteristics from your list, as you seem to make the point of these being the defining characteristics for the genre). Are you saying that RPGs are first person shooters?



It is a tricky comparison, unless the qualities of play or system mechanics are applied equally to all genres, but unfortunately the data then becomes almost meaningless.

Lars Doucet
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A game can belong to more than one genre. There are many RPG's that allow you to move and shoot in first person, which DEFINITELY makes them First Person Shooters as well. Deus Ex is a great example.



However, moving in first person and shooting do NOT belong to all RPG's, whereas they do belong to all FPS's.



As for the chart, it's only purpose is to demonstrate that RPG's are hard to define, and other genres are a lot easier to define. I think that much is clear. The features I chose to list for each genre were just the first that came to mind.

Tim Tavernier
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You misunderstand. RPG's inherently have game-mechanized player growth where it is necessary to defeat enemies which gives you means to become stronger so you can beat them easier or harder ones.



Metroid doesn't have this, Metroid is perfectly possible to finish without the upgrades (but it is hard as nails) and defeating enemies in metroid doesn't directly add to the growing of Samus as character. You just find the upgrades...that's it.



Zelda has been considered an RPG for a long time. The original was considered an arcade/rpg, Zelda II was hailed as one, Ocarina of Time was labelled everywhere as an Action-Adventure-RPG. It's not because the now very vocal minority doesn't view it as one we have to commit some form of historical negationism. In Zelda, you kill enemies, they drop loot/keys/whatever, you use that to get new weapons or more powerfull ones, you kill enemies easier, BAM...RPG. That's the core of all rpg's, also the reason why there are so many RPG-genres and also why the RPG can be fitted so easily into other genres as a side dish (Call of Duty being the biggest one now).



I understand why you use those definition properties, but all the humane sciences (social, cultural, political,history and so forth) have great trouble of employing them...so don't expect it to fit for games. I rather use an alternative where removing the defining characteristic would un-make it. Call of Duty without the RPG-elements would still be an FPS. Zelda without the RPG-elements would just be a maze-game with shallow hack'n slash gameplay. Diablo without rpg-elements the same, Dragon Age without RPG-elements is just a very slow version of God of War with a party. God of War without its (very minimal) RPG-elements is still God of War. Still has it's combat system, still has its very linear structure and so forth.



And zelda was a arcade/RPG, it was easy to learn, hard to master, but complex...kids picked it up in droves. Remember, this was after the Atari Generation left gaming after the implosion of 1983. There were no expectations because no one was left to have them (except for some computer people and they called mario and zelda for the "casuals"...yeah...irony bites doesn't it ^^).

Lars Doucet
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The trouble with defining RPG's is that for every proposed definition, I can come up with an example that breaks it.



It's actually impossible to beat Metroid without getting the upgrades. You MUST get the missiles, and the roly-poly ball, and I'm pretty sure you MUST get the bombs. It's not just tough as nails, it's impossible.



So you say, remove RPG elements from Zelda, Dragon Age, Diablo, and they cease to exist. I would disagree. Zelda could still exist without any character growth at all - remove the gatings that require you to have X hearts or this item to continue and there it is. I've seen plenty of playthroughs where people purposefully go through the game with getting as few powerups as possible, much like the scenario you describe for Metroid.



Some would say that without the upgrades and "use item X in dungeon Y" it's no longer zelda - but then you could say the same about metroid not being metroid without its upgrades.



By your definition, either they're both RPG's or neither is.



I understand where you're coming from and I understand your opinion. I just don't think it fits the data - I can always come up with an example that breaks a hard definition of "this is an RPG, and this is not."

J awee
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I was unclear - not enough coffee. You mentioned in your response to Tim that plenty of other games involve character growth, and you cite Metroid as an example. But since not all of them do, doesn't this undercut your response?

Lars Doucet
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My point is this - lots of RPG's have character growth, maybe even all of them, but I don't think it defines the genre ALL BY ITSELF.



And by defines, I mean "makes the community agree." We all have our personal, super precise, definition.



It's easy to get people to agree about what makes an FPS an FPS in terms of raw mechanics. Same goes for real time strategy, turn based strategy, etc.



Sure, not all other games have character growth. However, I can easily imagine an RPG with no character growth at all. Just sit down with with some friends and play a pen-and-paper roleplaying campaign with no leveling up or gathering experience whatsoever. Pure role-playing and story, and no mechanics or dice-rolling. Plenty of people have run campaigns like this and plenty would agree this is an RPG.



My point is just, we have a weak term here, and so we have to deal with lots of expectations.

Leandro Pezzente
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I am kinda wonder how an "In-Game Social Interaction" column would affect the chart. After all every pen and paper RPG game is basically about that : In Game Social interaction and Building a Community Storytelling Experience.

Robert Boyd
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I'd say the big defining characteristic is that character growth is the DEFINING characteristic of RPG gameplay. Sure, plenty of non-RPGs feature characters getting more powerful over the course of the game, but it's not the focus of the game.

J awee
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Good rebuttal. I understand more clearly what you were getting at. And maybe (personal hypothesis) there is no clear-cut solid definition. I personally dislike Picasso's work (perhaps even saying it sucks on occasion), but that doesn't change his status in history, or his contributions to the art world - it is purely my opinion. After playing the whole elder scrolls series, I personally think Oblivion was a let-down (definitely have said it sucks, but only to my wife), so I suppose I fall into the category of overly judgmental/hard to please people you describe.



I guess for my part, I generally keep my opinions to myself, and let others judge for themselves the relative merit of some thing.

Lars Doucet
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I'll concede a focus on character growth is about as close as we're going to get to a shared definition, though it does exclude "pure" role-playing RPG's.



In my chart, if you combine loot, experience, and skills into one column called "character growth" all the games on the list have it in common.



My next project: less inflammatory articles.

E Zachary Knight
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Hey, don't censor yourself. I love your discussions on RPGs.

Tim Tavernier
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I agree. There have been far more intense and pro-longed discussions about lesser things out there then trying to figure out the defining aspect of RPG's.



Also, isn't "pure" role-playing RPG's more alike to improv-theatre then an actual (or really badly designed) game?



Also, to clarify, in Zelda you need to kill enemies/act out the games core-mechanics to have character growth, in metroid you don't (killing enemies in metroid doesn't get you the freeze ray). That need, put in there by the very mechanics of the game is the difference between Zelda being a RPG and Metroid not being one. But then again, you didn't need to do character growth in Oblivion...but that is rather more cause of bad game design.



Still, you make for lively debates! Keep it up!

Lars Doucet
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So be it! See you all next time :)

Justin Jackson
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I understand that allot people are passionate about the action-adventure-RPG genre, but to me, personally, i just don't classify finding a new gizmo, be it a freeze ray, hookshot, go-go gadget-copter or what ever it is that restricts the 'hero' from progressing further AT ALL a from of "character growth/progression". It probably more like Character Limitation.

Dave Smith
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absolutely. if loot is the central mechanic of RPGs, then i dont like RPGs. i have no interest in shiny new swords. i want to ROLE PLAY.

Laurie Cheers
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The term is basically a historical accident. Character-Growth games ended up being called Role-Playing games because of D&D: it was the seminal Role-Playing game, AND the seminal Character-Growth game.



But it called itself a Role-Playing game, which meant every clone of D&D was also called a Role-Playing game - regardless of whether D&D's Role-Playing aspect was actually among the things being copied.

Tore Slinning
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"In my chart, if you combine loot, experience, and skills into one column called "character growth" all the games on the list have it in common."



Superfiscal observations, what character development must do in any self respecting RPG is providinging means to stimulate factors and interactions in the gamworld and setting.

You have to imagine the scale, PnP gaming needed the DM as a provider for the interaction, which makes the amount of interactions theoreticly limitless.



Such a feat have never been introduced in CRPG for the obvius reasons, but its still possible to put numerous and varied interactions within the gameworld, within the confined leveldesign.



And remember we're not just talking about combat here.

E Zachary Knight
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You are right. Defining "RPG" is a pretty daunting and seemingly impossible task. As a fan of RPG's I find it hard to define as well.



Is Valkyria Chronicles an RPG or military tactics simulation? Is White Knight Chronicles an RPG or a 3rd person action/adventure game?



When I look to designing RPG games, I tend to reference games like Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest and Breath of Fire more than I reference Tactics Ogre or Legend of Zelda. But I also look to mix design elements when needed.



I think with RPGs it is best to think of them as a game with character growth (through leveling, equipment or other methods) in combination of any two or more of the rest of the elements. It seems odd at first but certainly makes sense.



I also think that exploration should be given greater consideration as a defining feature of RPGs. While Final Fantasy Tactics does not give you free roaming capabilities of otehr Final Fantasy games, you still explore the world and view the world through the experiences of a warrior. Just because you can't roam a wilderness or a town does not mean exploration is lost. You are still traveling a world in search of completing a quest.



One last thing, I agree completely that RPG fans place too much emphasis on "Epic" I would like to see more RPG games that feature stories that can be played in 5-10 hours. I would also like to see more episodic RPGs as well. This is something I am considering making in the future, when I get around to making some RPGs.

Lars Doucet
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Exploration is definitely a great feature of RPG's. The main challenge with exploration is that it is content-hungry, so it's all a question of what your team has the resources to focus on.



Luckily, there's plenty of ways to get around the problem of resource-hungry locations. Evoking a living, breathing, world can be done by such things as a detailed map (even if there's just points of interest on it), carefully written dialogue that suggests a deeper backstory (but without spamming text all over the page), etc.

Lars Doucet
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(accidental double post deleted)

Kamruz Moslemi
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The average game is so short today that you can have a proper introduction for all of your systems, and grow them to the point where they are beginning to become tired, tell your story, and be epic all within a manageable 20 hour length.

Lars Doucet
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@Stephen



What makes you say Tower defense and RPG's are inherently incompatible? Not trying to start an argument - I'm just interested in your thoughts as they're highly relevant for a developer like me trying to understand expectations :)

E Zachary Knight
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I have another thought. I think you should define a genre based on what you do for the majority of time you play the game.



What do you do the majority of the time in an FPS? You run around and shoot stuff in a first person perspective.



What do you do the majority of the time in an RTS? You strategically develop and deploy units to win battles.



What do you do the majority of the time in an RPG? You grow your character through equipment, skill progression, leveling or any or all combined.



Seems a logical breakdown. Take out that key feature that defines the genre and you are not playing that genre anymore.



I also understand what you said above about playing a PnP RPG without any kind of character growth. And that is the root of role-playing. You are acting out a role. You could say that about any game. Unfortunately the term Role-playing Game has been denoted to describe a game in which you progress by growing a character.

Luis Guimaraes
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Pretty much this. The fact character growth is a key defining feature in RPGs is because it's about role playing in the sense of character skill instead of player skill.



In a black and white manner (for easy interpretation of the extremes):



No matter how good you can play, if the character is in the beggining of his journey, he can't do what you can do. And no matter how bad you play, if the character has grown enough, he'll be able to defeat the thoughest of the enemies. What you do as a player, is to guide him through the journey and the growth.



There's also mixes of these RPG systems and player skill systems. In Borderlands, the ability to position yourself strategically and your reflexes at aiming can highly leverage the advantage to the player side. In Fallout 3, a dozen shotgun shots perfectly placed straight to the foe's face won't kill him unless your character has enough experience points.



So the point of extreme black and white RPG is that you take the decisions, but your character is who has the skill (or not) to perform the intended actions. Character stats over player skill.



Since other games rely on the player developing better skills, the currently called video-game RPG genre needs the character to develop better skills. The player learns, the character masters (again, in a black and white analisis).

Leandro Pezzente
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I would definitely add In Game Charater Social Interaction and Quest Based Storytelling ro Character Growth for an RPG.

Sean Currie
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This argument about RPGs is about as old as the genre itself, and it is somewhat frustrating that one can't seem to talk about the genre without running headlong into the definition issue. My general rule of thumb is pretty simple (and is reflected in the book Dungeons and Desktops by Matt Barton) and that's one of commonality. There's no de-facto feature that defines an RPG. Character growth seems to be the most common feature but let's perform a though experiment.



Take Final Fantasy IV. The entire game. Crack it open and pull out the experience and leveling features. Re-tool the battle system (only slightly) so that each fight was a series of tactical encounters. Require the player to figure out weaknesses in the enemy instead of just rolling higher and higher numbers. In fact, maybe even make the HP and attack values purely static. However, keep everything else about the battle system the same. The same "Select Fight to attack" motif. Has Final Fantasy IV suddenly ceased being an RPG? Nope, most people would still define it as such. While rare (though I'm sure if I looked hard enough I could find examples) character growth isn't a pre-requisite for making an RPG.



RPGs, as a genre, have a series of common features. Leveling is one. A relatively open world that's explorable is another. Loot is a third. A narrative structure is a forth. Interactions with NPCs a fifth. Occasionally turn based combat is in there. Sometimes a top-down perspective. Etc. Etc. Etc. Once a game is released that takes a large number of those common features and throws them together, it becomes an RPG.



Yes, COD has an XP and leveling system. But it doesn't make it an RPG. However, that isn't because it's a first person shooter. Borderlands is the counter example. It's a first person shooter. It also has an XP and leveling system, but structurally it shares a lot in common with RPGs. There's quests. Open towns. NPCs you can interact with. A loot and inventory system. Etc Etc. Borderlands, for many members of the RPG community, counts as an RPG. Why? Because it has a large number of recognized elements in common with "classical" RPGs. Those recognized elements number just enough to reach that ever elusive threshold of "counting" as an RPG.



What that threshold is generally varies by player and community, but the more elements you have in common, the more likely you are to be accepted as an RPG.

Charles Stuard
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I find it somewhat ironic that the main issue I, personally, might have with your game (and others like Crystal Defenders) is that it lets me down in the "Tower Defense" department.



Now, let me preface again this is personal preference, but for some reason I just cannot enjoy any "Tower Defense" game that isn't about stationary defenses, like towers. When you're placing characters as the towers, and they're running around and such... I don't know, it just feels really off to me.



Anyway, I'm not suggesting you're doing something wrong; I just found the article's content to be juxtaposed interestingly with my own feelings. Great article, per usual!

Lars Doucet
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Charles:



Maybe it will make you feel better that I hated Crystal Defenders, too, and this game is specifically designed to address its faults :)

Charles Stuard
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That's good to hear! I'll give any RPG or Tower Defense game a chance; You guys have both, so I'll definitely try it out once it's readily available!



But I've really enjoyed this series of articles. Even when you get very specific about your game, I'm seeing a lot of things that can be applied on a wider scale. Too bad so many of these devolve into arguments over topics that usually aren't the main focus of the article.



Anyway, keep 'em coming! Hope to get a post-mortem as well once you see how this performs in the wild.

Leandro Pezzente
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Once upon a time i played Nihilist Studio's Vampire The Mascarade : Bloodlines RPG. Gosh , I remember saying " Man , this games feels so much like the real Pen and Paper Thing!". I do wish every RPG could match what VTM: Bloodlines achived in terms of visual storytelling. In fact , I have argued many times with my friends that " An MMORPG with VTM : Bloodlines storytelling mechanism its possible " albeit contants "Dude , you are so wrong" responses.

Jonathan Jou
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Your post inspired me to write several paragraphs, which I concluded don't belong appended to the bottom of this worthy article! I'll sum up what I think here to salute your thought-provoking posts:



1. The definition of the RPG is, was, and has been (since tabletop games where actual roles were played) organic. People took D&D, and replaced the GM (and creative player choice) to produce the CRPG. The Japanese took CRPGs, and (slowly but surely) added layers of plot and character development to produce JRPGs. Great minds like Molyneux and Bethesda took CRPGs, and added meaningful, plot-changing choices in addition to incredible customization to increase player identification to produce... more CRPGs. Other Japanese people took JRPGs, and switched out the turn-based, menu-operated combat for brawler and fighting game combat mechanics to produce... more JRPGs. Both the west AND the east added the dimension of geographic placement, and squad-based tactics.... to produce SRPGs, JRPGs, and CRPGs. A few especially prudent individuals added lots, and lots, and lots of players, and produced MMORPGs.



In short, there is no sound definition for an RPG, because defining RPGs is like defining Post-Modernism. It characterizes multiple generations of experimentation and diversity rather than holding to any sort of consistent vision.



2. Almost all RPGs emphasize two of the following:

A. Artificial progression, characterized best by the fact that the gains a player makes in an RPG tend to be limited to the save file they made them in, and the fact that the same strategy against the same enemy can produce wildly different results solely as a result of "stats" which define the capabilities of the player.

B. Tactical challenge in combat, where the results of battle depend solely on the actions chosen and predetermined stats (often with some randomness thrown in), such that a player with very little experience can reproduce the results of a player who has beaten the game multiple times given sufficient character progression.

C. Extensive narrative content which adds little depth to the game, and seeks to increase the player's emotional engagement. Often to the point of having so much content that not all of it is required to beat the game.



I challenge you to find an RPG which doesn't contain at least two of those! :P And I'll give you credit if or when I post my own thoughts.

Kamruz Moslemi
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I have a final, irrefutable definition for what an RPG is. Are you guys ready? Here goes...



















Everything is an RPG. Exactly, everything, don't dispute it, you are wrong. Yes, even that one game you are thinking about right now, yerp, its an RPG.

Tim Tavernier
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Wait...no...maybe!...no...Damn You Post-Modern Thaught!!!

Dave Endresak
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I'd like to add one point to the general, fundamental issue of defintion.



It really isn't all that complex. Role-playing games are games where you role-play a character. THAT is the very definition. If you remove role-playing, you do not have a role-playing game.



Obviously, there are hybrids, and there are various mechanics that can be used to allow the player to role-play. None of that matters for the genre, though.



One way to understand the definition issue better is to consider other areas that require role-playing such as acting or training sessions such as foreign language training or business training. You can contrast these examples with specific genres such as FPS. You do not role-play in an FPS, or at least there is no requirement that you do so. Even a game like the original Deus Ex does not require the player to role-play JC Denton. If the player does not adhere to the type of character that they originally envisioned for JC, the game doesn't care.



It's also true that you can take a role-playing game and jettison the role-playing mechanic. However, in such a case, you no longer have a role-playing game. It's pretty simple, I think. If you jettison role-playing from acting, for example, you no longer are acting.



The bottom line is that this is one of the biggest issues for so-called RPGs. Most games that are called "RPGs" really are not.



Also, it annoys me that people continue trying to call something a "JPRG" when the Japanese simply took the concepts presented in the first Wizardy and then adapted them to their own gaming. The West, particularly America, created the basic concept of a role-playing game, including CRPGs like Wizardy. The Japanese took the idea and ran with it, but it's rather misleading to call a game a "JRPG" as though it was a different concept than a Western RPG, or that somehow "RPG" means "Western RPG."



Lars, you may want to offer an exception to the basic definition, but I would state that any exception is simply not an RPG. At best, such an example might be a hybrid.



Kamruz tries to take a way out that I have seen before, but such an approach does not work for a couple reasons. One problem is that such a view doesn't include puzzle games such as Tetris. Another major problem with the overgeneralized approach is that it is pointless and equates the meaning of "game" to "role-playing." Using a term such as "playing" may mean "acting" in certain contexts and thus might be said to imply that "role-playing" means "gaming" in such contexts, but such a convoluted argument cannot be generalized to all contexts by any means.



If I am not role-playing a character, either one I create or one that I choose from several a game offers me to play, I am not playing a role-playing game.

Anthony Pecorella
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I think you are confusing "meanings of words" and "definition of a term". Yes, "role playing game", as three distinct words, would mean a game in which a role is played. However, that is not what the *term* means in modern parlance. As has been mentioned above, you play the role of Mario in Super Mario Bros., but the gaming industry/consumers agree that describing Super Mario Bros. as an RPG would be false advertising. This article is about the term "RPG", and it's (lack of) definition.



I think Sean nailed it (in addition to Lars) - that a game is defined as an RPG largely by how many RPG-y elements it has, and is generally a community consensus (or perhaps majority). The Borderlands vs. Call of Duty example was great.

Kamruz Moslemi
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Dave Endresak, you miss my point entirely.



What my jest was trying to convey, well, I'll let my mate Shakespeare say it best: What is in a name?



An RPG by any other genre moniker is just as sweet. Genre associations are determined by the creator and the hive mind anyway, no need to turn it into a formula.



Also, in Tetris you role play as a guy who controls the blocks, or as the blocks themselves, depending on your point of view.

Robin Jack
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- edit, double post by mistake

Robin Jack
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Just a thought - I think there's a reason Shakespeare made a foolish fourteen year old say those words, just like its correlate, 'What's aught but as 'tis valued?' (Troilus in T+C), and that's that you encounter significant problems when either trying to strictly define a genre like RPG with a set of conditions that are both necessary and sufficient, or claim 'any game people that say is an RPG is in fact an RPG'. An easy way out of this problem is with polythetic groups (or the Wittgensteinian 'family resemblances'):



http://www.iva.dk/bh/lifeboat_ko/CONCEPTS/monothetic.htm

Michael Joseph
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It doesn't matter what a RPG is defined as. Genre's are for classifying games after the fact. You don't actually (shouldn't) go around producing a game based on the genre(s) it falls into. I can't think of an easier way to create something completely unoriginal and uninspired than to try and develop something that fits the ideal definition of any particular genre.



The only people who should be talking about genres are marketing folk and reviewers. And if marketers don't misrepresent the game hopefully there won't be any disappointment due to erroneous expectations.

Tore Slinning
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And i can't imagine anything blander then games that's not produced up to any standards.



If you remove the genera equation in production you'll just homogenize the market further.

Anthony Pecorella
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It's funny that we (myself included!) are again getting stuck on defining RPGs in these comments, when the point of the article is not at all "what is an RPG?" but rather "how do we manage player expectations of a game?" For us it happens to be about an RPG since we have an RPG (at least by our definition :-P), but many of these questions apply to other games and genres too. They just come into heavy focus with RPGs due to the nebulous definition that exists in the market of the genre.



I'm one of the other developers on Defender's Quest, and one of the issues that we have is how to market the game. As Michael Joseph pointed out, genre classification is in large part a marketing question, but as an indie game designer without a publisher we do have to answer that question.



We need to be able to convey things like "This game won't take you 100+ hours to beat...and that's a good thing!" Perhaps you don't agree that a short game is ideal for an RPG, but if you make a short RPG you want your audience to believe that, at least for your game, this compactness is a plus rather than a minus. The question of "suckage" that started this blog is spot-on: if the player is expecting one thing and gets another, they're not going to be happy with the result. You may like wine and you may like Mellow Yellow, but if you think you're about to drink wine and it's actually Mellow Yellow, you're going to hate it.

Charles Stuard
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Weird... I drink Mello Yello all the time... I would be quite annoyed if I got wine!



It's a great question... esepcially since I think most RPG gamers expect a sizable title length. Even Puzzle Quest, which I would dare say is your major comparison product, had quite the amount of content. But they also fed the people who wanted more with "Endless" modes.



By contrast, most Tower Defense games are fairly short. Desktop Tower Defense only has three "levels". My personal favorite, an iOS game that goes by GeoDefense, only has some 30-40 levels I believe. But the "length" of that game comes from impossibly difficult maps and "high scores"... both of which I think might be a turn off to the RPG crowd; to use the terms from previous articles, too much focus on tactics and not enough on strategy. In fact, the inclusion of "strategy" almost requires a longer game, otherwise it might come off as shallow.



Anyway, not to get on a tangent here, but the best plan might be to market as a Tower Defense game with an RPG mode. Then, instead of focusing on "hours" you could focus on "stages"? 20 hours sounds short to most people, but 50 stages sounds pretty good!



Although, I guess I don't know if you guys even have stages. You might have some crafty random battle system... This is what you get when you try and invent (or merge) genres!

Anthony Pecorella
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Puzzle Quest is absolutely a great comparison and inspiration to some extent for our game. It was indeed a very long game (or so I assume, as I don't think I'm very far into it and have been playing for hours) and will probably outpace our game in that extent. We debated having random battles early on in the design, and sometimes I wonder if that would have been a better way to go, but at this point they are all pre-created battles, albeit with some random elements (in terms of skills, dodges, hit rates, etc.).



GeoDefense is a great TD game and head-deskingly difficult at times, which is certainly a lot of fun. I think you're right that uber difficulty and high scores are not going to appeal to the RPG crowd, who are used to time being the primary "difficulty" (ok, please don't reply to that one remark - I'm mainly poking fun as the big "Weapon" bosses in FFVII and other FF challenges - I realize that many RPGs do require legitimate skill over grinding). Our hope is to balance between character development (a great observation made earlier: even the most talented player can't beat a level 10 enemy when they are level 1) and player development (you still need to learn about tactics to use your developed characters the best, and there's no clear auto-win strategy).



Then, once that's done, we have to convey that experience as the expected, and *desired*, experience for this game. I can enjoy a variety of RPGs, but I want to know clearly what I'm getting into before I start.

Charles Stuard
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Definitive stages are perfect then, I'd say! I think if your description is "Over 50 levels of combat!" as opposed to some hour estimate, I think folks who know the Tower Defense genre will have an understanding of the length of your game.



Of course, I'm not a marketing guy, community manager, or PR guy of any sort... but that makes sense to me.

M C
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aka retroactively defining a misnomer that has been grandfathered into the vernacular :D



Just wait until someone makes an actual 'role playing game' in this space. Kids in 30 years are going to look back and laugh at how we've abused that term.

John Gordon
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A role playing game is one where the "character's" experience has unusual emphasis. (As opposed to most games which focus solely on the player's experience.) Character growth is the most common way that the character's experience is emphasized. Roleplaying games also tend to have some type of narrative, which also focuses on the character as the protagonist of that narrative. The character may explore a vast world and be given quests. He may interact with NPC's or other people playing other characters. However you will see that all of these mechanics have one thing in common. They put a fair amount of emphasis on the character's experience.



Contrast this with say a FPS which clearly puts emphasis solely on the player's experience. The first person mechanic is one about the player's viewpoint. And really if you examine them closely all other genres focus solely on the player's experience unless they have some RPG elements included. However it is the focus on the "character's" experience that truly makes something an RPG.

Jack Garbuz
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I'll provide what I think is a simpler definition. An RPG is more talk than action; an FPS is more action than talk.



In addition, RPG's are more complex and usually much longer, and hence presumably more expensive overall to produce than FPS's.



With RPG's you generally would need more writers to write all the sub-plots, I suspect. However, you probably would not have to vary the scenery (generally speaking) from level to level with RPGs as much as is the case with most FPS's, which probably saves a bit on the artistry required for RPG's.

An FPS, particularly a military FPS, that doesn't vary the scenery of the various maps or missions, will soon seem very boring. An RPG that doesn't have varied subplots



INdeed, one generally sees that the graphics in most run of the mill RPG's to be inferior to most FPS's. Players of FPS's generally prefer more realism. IMO. That is to say, most RPG's tend to be more fantasy based, whereas most shooters tend to be more realism based. OF course, that's just a generality. Games that fall somewhere between being categorized as strictly shooters or being categorized as RPGs, such as Red Dead Redemption or Fallout, etc., tend to fall somewhere in between regarding both the graphical realism and the complexity of the story.



There have to be tradeoffs to stay within overall budget, I would assume.

Jack Garbuz
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In my prior post I forgot to finish, that an RPG that doesn't have polished and varied subplots would be considered an inferior product in that genre.



Again, it's the cost of good fiction writers in RPG's, versus the cost of good graphics artists in quality FPS's such as COD Black Ops, for example.

Prash Nelson-Smythe
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I don't think an RPG needs *any* talk to comfortably fit into the accepted definition or the more selective ones.

Jack Garbuz
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Of course, there is the question of how one FEELS playing an RPG versus playing an FPS.



Players of RPG's would tend to love a good story with interesting subplots, with the adrenaline rush of action being a secondary consideration.



Players of FPS generally place the adrenaline rushes of continuous action over the story elements in preference.



Of course the above are just generalities, with most players PROBABLY falling somewhere in between, preferring both story and action to be in close tandem.

Tim Tavernier
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I do want to point out to all the people now also bringing out subplots and story and what not, that the most successful RPG now is...WoW. And WoW is far more about stats, leveling up and balance then any kind of subplot or narrative going on.



A group of RPG-fans like plots, doesn't mean all of them do. Bringing in narrative and plots and such actually always detract from the discussion of a game being a game. It's a nasty habit we all should unlearn.

Jack Garbuz
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WoW is an online multiplayer, so I would assume that is a different dynamic altogether. I'm talking about single player. In online multiplayers, there is interaction and often competition between real humans playing the game, and so they are sort of sports games in a sense, with teams, human interaction, and all. YOu don't need really need narrative or plots in football or baseball either, although there is often a sportscaster paid to narrative anyway.

Tim Tavernier
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And you would be right if WoW was multiplayer only all the time. A lot of WoW-players do a lot of Single Player-ing. So the same dynamic still applies.



And a lot of the first RPG's for computers and consoles had hardly anything going on plot or narrative-wise.

Prash Nelson-Smythe
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I agree with "video game RPGs are defined by character progression/customisation" and yes it's a little disappointing this wasn't spotted in the article since all of the evidence was collected before our eyes. This is the core that is central to every RPG and makes them satisfying to play. Obtaining loot and wearing/using it counts as progression/customisation. This also fits well enough with the words "role", "playing" and "game". Other elements such as story, characters, dialogue etc. are optional.



A side affect of this is that RPGs lend themselves to being "epic" or "big" or "long", since progressing a character usually takes time.



Therefore if you say "This is an RPG", the player will expect to be able to control a character they can progress and/or customise. Particular aesthetics or mechanics are completely optional until you get down to subgenres and this is where all the nuances come in. It is best if people simply appreciate how different their favourite RPG subgenre can be compared to others. Not assume that RPGs must have story, or a fantasy setting, or parties etc. etc.



Edit: just spotted the edit in the article where the author more or less concedes this point. Fair enough. I needn't have posted this!

Jack Garbuz
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What is the point of "progressing" a character? Isn't the point to be able to fight tougher opponents along the line, and eventually to be able to defeat the final Boss?

Jack Garbuz
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Speaking strictly for myself, I don't play Role Playing Games in order simply to find stuff, or level up, or mix potions. I am drawn in by the various stories, sub-plots, all of which ultimately lead to one of a small number of possible conclusions, usuallly determined by one's course of actions - whether one played as a "good guy," or a bad guy, or went in with this or that faction. If action is all I want, then I play a military FPS, or some such.

Bryan Pope
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Another great article with a good perspective. While I don't agree with everything, we rpg'rs are indeed a passionate and opinionated lot. That is evidenced by all these long replies.

BTW, I thought Fallout 3 sucked, there I said it.

Jack Garbuz
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Fallout 3, Fallout Las Vegas, and Red Dead Redemption were three of the best games of the last few years. Different strokes for different folks.

Luis Guimaraes
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It sucked for me too, the game doesn't let me do anything. The system is way too closed within it's numeric boundaries.

Anthony Pecorella
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I think the fact that there continues to be such a debate in these comments about how everyone has "the perfect" definition of RPGs, and yet they are so varied, is really just proving Lars' point. :)

Tore Slinning
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No, its just that the people that have come with a reasonable consensus are overshouted by "YOU PLAY A ROLE IN STORY" voices.



The wording might be different but plenty of people have the same idea about what RPG's should be about.





When you talk about RPG's (or any other genres for that matter) you don't discuss feauters, you discuss metaphysics.

Its not something you can sum up in oneliners.

Robin Jack
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polythetic vs monothetic

Jack Garbuz
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It's a power struggle between the "good" or "pure" programmers (the knights of puzzles and problem solving), versus the "evil" black-hearted writers and story tellers.

Devin Wilson
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Very interesting article. Thumbs up!

Anthony Pecorella
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I saw a great example of this post's point appear in form of Crysis 2 reviews. Specifically, compare the Amazon reviews of the 360 (4.5 / 5.0 stars) and PC (3.0 / 5.0 stars). The game is the same on both platforms, and in fact can be run at higher resolution and detail on the PC. The first Crysis was PC-only, so 360 users are just excited to have Crysis 2 and didn't have the first to compare it to. Meanwhile, PC games are bemoaning the step back to DX9, the less open world, the lack of new weapons, and the fact that the game is a huge disappointment after the first one. Nevermind that the game has great reviews from critics and console owners - the PC owners wanted something closer to what they were expecting, rather than what they got.



And yes, I know they are slightly different audiences who like different games, but the difference in attitude in the reviews is quite striking and really demonstrates Lars' point.

Alan Mills
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I just wanted to confirm a few things. I'm going to clarify my questions with my opinions.



1. Could not all games with any kind of character growth be called an RPG? Take for example Bad company 2(single player), we never see or get the real name of the soldier you play. You see the character play through a number of difficult missions and become part of a tightly knit group. Couldn't this be seen as a form of character growth and if that is the defining factor of an RPG then could i call this an RPG. While the multiplayer portion of the game actually contains a large amount of character growth in the terms of weapons the player can use the player can never truly advance the story. The maps continue to be the same, while the players you compete against you may be of high or lower skill level.



To try and make my question clearer, How much character growth does it take for the game to be considered part of the RPG genre?

Victor Lara
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By its simplest definition, a Role-Playing Game is one in which the player assumes a centric part in a developing story. This definition is extremely vague and encompasses pretty much EVERY story driven game ever made... Which is good because in the widest sense, every story driven game requires a player to play a part, and thus MUST be an RPG. By this definition RPGs, FPSs, Fighting games, RTSs with stories... ALL become RPGs.



There is, of course, a subgroup of games which are considered "classic" RPGs. These games usually have the following elements:



A story world (NPCs, Background story, branching storylines, places, etc.)

Character Progression (Levels, skill development, etc.)

Character Configuration (Persistent inventory and equipment configuration in most cases).

Encounter and combat mechanics.

Victor Lara
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Lars, you posit unstructured pen & paper RPGs as an example of a no character progression RPG. But I don't think this is true... Character progression isn't REALLY about levels, skills or items. The players in an RPG will eventually meet new NPCs, acquire higher standing with some of them, gain access to new information, locations, possibilities, etc. All of which makes them more powerful, gives them greater freedom. THAT'S what it's about, empowering the PC within the story world.



I think the problem with defining the RPG genre is that at its core, every story-driven video game ever made is also an RPG, but the term RPG has been used to address only a small subset of them. It's really a question of semantics, isn't it?



Before you say anything about character configuration.. it's NOT just about your inventory. In WoW it's what skills you put on your skill tab, as well as what items you equip. In Zelda it includes what you assign to your C-keys. In Pokemon it's your Pokemon line-up and what items you give each Pokemon... Heck, in Magic: TG it's how many of which cards you add to your deck from your card pool. Character configuration is about making the player choose what capabilities he wants to use from those he has accumulated throughout his time playing.

Tore Slinning
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You are muddying the waters with "writers theory", the character concept in an RPG contains the range of variables that defines your limitations/strenghts.





"I think the problem with defining the RPG genre is that at its core, every story-driven video game ever made is also an RPG, but the term RPG has been used to address only a small subset of them. It's really a question of semantics, isn't it? "



No, the real problem is that you see the core of an RPG as storytelling with just some gameplay tacked on.



An RPG session has a story, yes, a story defined out of the setting and the rules, the same rules you use to play the game.





In an FPS like halflife, gameplay and story, isnt really tied up, you collect enough rockets, time what you can fire of some skillfull shoots and you have deafeted Niahlam(Sic).

Yet, it dosent mean anything, you have your narrative yes, its the encouragement factor, but the fun you had in playing the gameplay had very little todo with the story, in the sense that it didnt define the challenge.





In an RPG thats totally different, if you are to kill a dragon, topple a kingdom or defeat a god....you must use the means you have at your disposal, those are defined in the rules, the same rules/setting that defines the dragon, the political undercurrents of the kingdom and how impossible it is to succeed wasting a god.

Your characters limitations vs the difficulties, the challenge is offcourse to use what resources you have, strategize, plot and connive your way to succeed in the quest.

So when you actually manage to do something absurd and fantastical, like saving the kingdom. Its becuase you yourself laid out the course to overcome impossible odds(by shrinking them in terms of character progression) within the game world.Thats the game right there.



This is a stark contrast to a ending in a game that hails you as master of the universe just because you were quick with the controller.

Tore Slinning
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Sorry, but you really should read Lauries Cheers post above.


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