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Report: Crytek losing staff and failing to meet payroll
Report: Crytek losing staff and failing to meet payroll
June 24, 2014 | By Alex Wawro

June 24, 2014 | By Alex Wawro
More: Console/PC, Business/Marketing

A pair of reports published this week by Eurogamer and Kotaku suggest that CryEngine developer Crytek may be having trouble paying all of its employees, losing some of them in the process.

According to Eurogamer, anonymous sources within Crytek UK claim the company has failed to consistently meet payroll for all employees, leading to low morale and the departure of more than 30 staff members since 2011.

The report is a follow-up to Crytek's recent statement refuting German magazine Gamestar's accusation that the company is on the verge of bankruptcy.

Kotaku's Jason Schreier has also been following the story for some time, and published a report today claiming that Crytek has had trouble paying all of its employees after losing a deal with Microsoft to develop a sequel to the studio's Xbox One launch game Ryse. According to a number of Schreier's sources, Crytek employees have been expressly forbidden from discussing salary issues over email.

"It upsets me greatly that Crytek continues to deny these allegations," reads one email from an anonymous former Crytek employee cited by Kotaku. "They are all true!"

Gamasutra has reached out to Crytek for comment, and we'll update this story with any meaningful new information.

If you or someone you know has been affected by this situation, you can email Gamasutra to tell your story confidentially.

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Joshua Wilson
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I think it's very symptomatic of some of the larger work place issues with the industry as a whole, when you read stories like this - not really uncommon - where people will continue to work, often for extended periods of time, even when not getting paid or getting paid less then what they're supposed to be paid.

Some people would say it's a positive sign that people feel so strongly about their workplace/coworkers that they don't want to let THEM down (and that often seems to be the justification) but I think that is a dangerous way to view things and leads to a mindset that allows or expects and is just an extension of other abuses taken like not getting overtime, working extended crunch, and in general feeling like you OWE something, leading to behavior that is detrimental to your well being.

It's almost like a form of stockholm syndrome - not to take anything away from the seriousness of that, but it seems to be within the same vein. It's important to remember that you are an employee, no matter how great a company you work for, if things get rocky you will be let go or be allowed to go down with the ship.

I guess the other side of that is denial - hoping that it will work out and you keep your job, maybe more so because it's within the game industry where jobs can be tough to get, but often times these stories do not end well. In fact I don't think I've seen any instance where a studio failed and it worked out for anyone but the small handful of executives/senior devs at the top.

Nathan Lee
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Yet another "holier than thou" moralistic post loaded with assumptions and presumptions. Pray tell, Joshua, what should employees do then?? Stop showing up at work altogether, and therefore not collect any check whatsoever?? Breaching your own end of the contract because the other end is breaking theirs?

I find it insulting that you attribute all these victim qualities to the devs there, without knowing any of the details. I guess you just had to have your fill of self-righteousness for the day?

None of those devs are stupid, I'm sure. And it's been reported that tons are leaving, and surely more are looking. But in the short term, you still need to put food on the table, even if late, no?? It's better than not at all.

So what are your solutions, besides calling them "stockholm syndrome afflicted" and "in denial" ?

Joshua Wilson
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If you are not being paid but are still working then you are a victim. The employer is taking advantage of you and probably breaking labor laws in the process.

Not being paid does not put food on the table. Either demand to be paid, or demand to be laid off (as any respectable employer would do) so that you can collect unemployment and move on. Sticking around without pay while other people are finding and filling up the few jobs available is a huge risk, to say the least.

The point of my comment was to highlight a very serious issue with the current way work is often done in this industry (perhaps others as well) where employers can abuse their employees good will (and vulnerability) and get away with it - whether that's through not paying, unpaid overtime, crunch, whatever.

Unfortunately this situation is continuously reinforced by employees themselves, who accept these situations and often pressure other employees to accept them as well. Or who attack other people on comment boards for pointing out the problem.

Nathan Lee
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Rephrasing your original post doesn't do anything. Firstly, who said they are not being paid? That's not what is said. What's said is they paid late. This is where you're basing your post on assumptions.

I understand the point of your comment. That comment always comes in one shape or another, whenever there's the slightest hint of an issue at any developer.

I'm not attacking you for pointing the problem. We ALL know what the problem is here. I'm simply pointing out that your comment is based on a whole lot of convenient assumptions for a good old class war-infused moralistic post. That's all. If you think I'm here defending any of these practices, you'd be seriously dead wrong. But I simply won't go as far as to make the sweeping generalizations and assumptions you're making.

Especially when by some accounts, up to 100 people might have left the company in the last 3 months. That hardly sounds like a victim mindset to me.

Joshua Wilson
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If you had read the coverage - linked in this article - then you'd know that, yes, some people have left but there are still people who are not being paid or being paid a fraction of what they should be

And you're larger point here is that because some people got out, that automatically means that no one else is a victim or could possibly feel trapped, not know what to do?

/Edit - I also have no idea what you mean by class warfare. Expecting employers to treat their employees with respect, and not abuse their goodwill and vulnerability, is not class warfare it's basic decency.

/Edit 2 - Additionally, saying that I'm making "sweeping generalizations and assumptions" is also straight false when we have seen this play out exactly the same way before. Just read, from their own perspectives, the accounts of employees who worked at Big Huge Games or 38 Studios. This is not new. No "sweeping generalizations" or "assumptions" required.

Matt Robb
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@Nathan Lee
If you are an employee as opposed to a contractor, being paid late is effectively the same as not being paid, especially when you are not given a reason or an estimated time when your pay will "catch up". Note the article saying "since 2011". This is not a temporary problem. If they haven't resolved the issue in 3 years, it is unlikely to ever be resolved, and anyone behind on pay isn't likely to be compensated if/when the company closes doors.

You call Joshua Wilson "holier than thou" but you're simply acting as an apologist for those participating in disingenuous business practices.

Stephen Horn
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I didn't read anything "moralistic" or "holier than thou".

I wish the folks still at Crytek, or recently departed from, all the best. I hope they land on their feet, find new employment, or get all the back pay owed to them. But I really do think that if Crytek is shorting people money, then the best advice is "that ship is capsizing, get off while you can, if you can."

You might even think of it this way: If you can leave, and do, that means someone else might get their next paycheck when they otherwise wouldn't have.

Alan Barton
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@Joshua Wilson. I very much agree with what you are saying.

Part of the problem of leaving means leaving all the Colleagues and friendships you've built up at work. The office is like a community and its hard to leave that, even when you know the company is in trouble. It can even be hard to leave when you are in a badly run bullying boss type of company. Often you find a kind of Camaraderie in companies in trouble with everyone pulling together.

So being one of the first to leave can be very hard indeed. The first to go are often the ones with families to have to worry about. They can't afford to hang around, so they need to think about how best to support their families. Its not until a few people start to leave that the idea of leaving becomes much easier. It sounds like Crytek are already there and I am sorry to hear they are in that much trouble. I worked in one company where 20 out of 60 people left in 20 weeks. We joked that collections for people leaving were becoming a noticeable expense and we joked "will the last one out, please turn off the light". Of course its "laughing in the face of adversity" kind of behaviour.

I was the 4th member of staff in that company, yet my pay hardly changed in 6 years of employment and yet it was still hard to leave even when I found out my wages were kept below the market rate so badly that I had ended up 35% below the market rate, for years on end, by the time I did leave the job. (And the company had the money to pay me better, as they were able to find the money to pay for such a huge expansion of staff during my time there). Also during these 6 years I had worked on two projects where we worked over 100 hours a week (7 days a week) for months at a time! (18 months on one project!) ... my record was 125 hours in one week!. I even had my own company sleeping bag where I slept under my table! As an employee it shows I tried bloody hard to help the company and I got results year after year (the company was able to grew to 60 employees off the hard work of us early employees). Yet it didn't matter to how I was treated. It wasn't until I finally had to say, enough is enough and could see the company was changing with so many leaving, then finally I left.

As you can see, I have vivid memories of my time there, yet I left that games company 18 years ago! This exploitation has been going on for decades and as the older people often leave the industry the next lot in get treated the same in a lot of companies until they wise up to how they are treated, then they leave, then another lot come in etc... Its never going to end and there will always be people in denial about it and people truly believing it can't be so. I know, because years ago, I was one of the young naive fools who tried to talk others out of leaving.

So is it worth holding on in there, risking going down with the ship? ... Over the decades I've lost count of the number of companies where staff have held on to the end only to find out there wasn't enough money to even pay them redundancy money. The bosses are of course gutted their company is going under and some (a few) do mortgage their houses and loose everything. But some (a lot) pay themselves so well during the good times, that they can withstand years being out of work and still have a lot of money left over ready to start up new companies. But the staff holding on to the end, they stand to loose everything. They don't earn the money the bosses get, so they are much more vulnerable, as they can't save up enough to survive for long being out of work.

As for loyalty to the products, to see them finished. Its such a thrill to see your game on a shop shelf. But then 3 months later, you find your game is in a bargain basket and then 6 months later its forgotten. So is it really worth putting yourself through serious financial hardship that many of the bosses in this industry don't put themselves through? They won't be thinking about you and many don't even realise how hard it is for you. So you have to ask yourself, is it really worth it? What will you really get out of it?

Joshua Wilson
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Well said and thanks for sharing.

Benjy Davo
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I'm not entirely surprised, their rapid expansion on the basis of Far Cry and Crysis both selling about 4 million copies always seemed a bit odd. They currently have about 800 staff which is almost publisher sized in scope. There only hit of late has been Warface and their retail games (crysis 2 + 3 and Ryse) have struggled. There have been tons of companies with far more success than them that haven't gone off at the deep end like they seem to have.

Still nobody likes to hear about people working without pay as lay-offs are only around the corner when that is happening.

Rob Toohey
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Well Ryse I can understand it's struggle being a launch title when players are figuring they don't need to upgrade just yet.

Crysis 2 and Crysis 3 are another story in itself, though.

Ruthaniel van-den-Naar
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If employer late with pay it doesnt mean that you will not paid, its only delay.. until all company propertly isnt completely exhausted.
In real life business, you could easily end in situation, when you havent revenue, but you have lots of items to sold and sell them could take some time.

What is interesting for me, Crytek is engine seller and lots of companies depens on this company. Would be Epic or Unity next? It would be bad, because we would be back in time when big companies have their big engines (EA - renderware, frostbite, Ubi- Anvil etc..) and small developer have only empty hands.

Benjy Davo
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Fear not for Epic Ruthaniel as they are 48% owned by Tencent which is a billion dollar gaming company. The only real risk for Epic is becoming irrelevant on the gaming front, but there are tons of companies you could say that about.

Lincoln Li
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In real life business, if your company is late in paying, it generally signals incompetency and lack of organization within the Business team, which in turn, hints at greater personnel issues that will definitely affect Company growth and development in the long term.

The whole point is to not exhaust company property... in fact, more often than not, when your company reaches that stage, the first thing to "get rid of" in a company before assets, is typically personnel. There are very few "items" within a company, outside of requiring funding from 3rd party investors, that will make you enough revenue to sustain your workforce. Employees are generally the highest cost to maintain in a company, which is why layoffs happen so often... if it were as easy as selling off Company assets to keep them... everyone would do it...

And doubtful, Epic is owned by Tencent, and Tencent is taking over Asia (and the world later :P)... they have more than enough money to survive and maintain UE4 (afaik), and I doubt Tencent will want to let Unreal die anytime soon. Plus, unlike Crytek, Unreal has had a stronger foot-hold on the market, especially with UE3, many devs still used modified engines, and are required to pay licensing fees. Unity on the otherhand, I doubt will ever have issues, they have a big market within the Mobile gaming community, and there's no sign that the Industry there is dying. Unity will have their market-share of that demographic as long as there isn't another company that can make a better engine (which neither Crytek or Epic have been able to match in the mobile development side).

Lastly, Smaller Developers shouldn't have an issue, the innovative ones create their own engines anyway, and the ones that depend on Unity or UE3, I doubt, will lose support anytime soon. Plus, as Indie development becomes more accessible, more companies will attempt to create easy-to-use, and friendly Tools + Engines.

About the only people possibly affected by a return to Proprietary Engines would be Amateur developers, students and Hobbyists... but that time is long gone... you've just got too much experience and talent in the field. Someone will come around and fill the gap if it arises.

Ian Richard
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That's something I've never understood.

In all my real business jobs if our project is late or we're not getting paid... someone's head will roll. Admittedly, due to corporate BS it's the wrong heads, but they at least TRY to improve the broken process.

But game jobs people shrug and say "That's just what we do." or "If you cared about the project you wouldn't question this."

Lincoln Li
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I absolutely agree, and it's a very interesting and intriguing Industry in the sense of how unique the sociology of Game Developers happens to be.

*Edit*: Before moving on, I do want to add, there are a lot of companies that are actively trying to improve these issues. The problem is, because companies tend to have very insular communities, due to our Industry being a secretive one... you don't often hear of the improvements unless you're at a particular studio, or if you keep up with other Game Devs / insider Game Dev communities... You really only ever see / hear the negative stuff in the public press...

In short, you do actually have to have worked in the Gaming Industry to understand (especially the Triple A studios). I think everyone has a different idea of why it's the way it is, and I can only give you my reasoning.

The way games are created (good or bad) involve so many disciplines, so much cooperation, and so much commitment into a goal that may or may not succeed, it's quite literally like being in the trenches with fellow soldiers during a War, in fact, you'll find I'm going to use the "war buddy" analogy quite frequently. While many of us come from different industries, or schools, and are trained differently, when you actually bring a team together to create something as creatively AND technically challenging as games, you can't help but have to re-learn how to do everything, both as a team, and also as a Developer. In a lot of ways too, because studios have different cultures, and we don't have a lot of set standards, the people at the studio with you just so happen to honestly be the only people that understand what you are, personally going through as well. (This is amplified by the fact that we're a niche industry to begin with...)

When a game comes out fantastically, sells a lot, and is beloved by millions, that's when Developers can go "It was all worth it", but on a deeper sociological level, it's already worth it, because the bond you make with fellow Developers is like having served in the same company during a war, and lived to tell the tale.

When people outside the Gaming Industry to get glimpses into the work environment, more often than not, I hear this: "Wow, I can't believe there's an Industry like this that exists where you can pool so much creativity, and people from such diverse disciplines together to get something done. It's absolutely incredible."

Yes, it is a lot of hard-work, and absolutely, we often have horribly mismanaged games and business models... but name one other career where you can find the same level of of cooperation, creativity, talent and fun.

(*Edit* Though I understand fun is so subjective haha, some people might find their jobs the best ones in the world, but while their work may be great, I don't often hear people praise the people they work with on a continual basis)

Alan Barton
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@Ruthaniel van-den-Naar: "If employer late with pay it doesnt mean that you will not paid, its only delay.. until all company propertly isnt completely exhausted"

It doesn't work like that in practice. If it comes down to a legal fight over property/assets, as an employee, you'll find you are near the end of a long line of debt collectors trying to get money out of a company that has collapsed due to lack of money. You'll find many in front of you will take the remaining money and leaving you with nothing.

Also with AAA dev companies, a lot of the company assets like Game Intellectual Property (IP) belongs to the publishers, so the developer has very little to sell. Also even when the developer owns their own IP, someone has to be willing to buy that IP for it to have any value at all and even when (if) it is sold, you are very unlikely to see any money, let alone getting back what the company really owes you in back pay and redundancy money. Plus by that time, you'll long be out of work, with no money to live on, let alone pay for lawyers to fight long and hard to try to get back some of what the company owes you.

@Ian Richard: "due to corporate BS it's the wrong heads, but they at least TRY to improve the broken process."

The middle managers and bosses won't fire themselves, even if they are responsible for the mess the company has got itself into.

@Lincoln Li: "but on a deeper sociological level, it's already worth it, because the bond you make with fellow Developers is like having served in the same company during a war, and lived to tell the tale."

Nice in theory but in practice, over the years, you'll tend to loose contact with almost everyone. This industry is big enough that you'll be unlikely to even meet a few of them in other companies ever again and many leave this industry after having a few bad experiences in a few jobs, which happens way too many times in our industry.

@Lincoln Li
“Cooperation” == It has to happen in many companies
“creativity” == If they design products, then they each have creativity.
“talent” == If they are creative companies, they have creative people.
“fun” == The work can be fun and many companies can have a laugh and they can do as many social things.

Now name how many industries:
(1) Pay no overtime

(2) Expect 60 to 100 hour weeks

(3) Expect 7 days a week working during crunch periods … which can last months.

(4) Throw a lot of staff out of a job, once the company sells the product they have been developing.

If you see my posts above on this page, you'll see I was once like you. Years ago, I said all the same things as you, even when I could see things were going wrong.

Lincoln Li
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@Alan Barton

"Nice in theory but in practice, over the years, you'll tend to loose contact with almost everyone. This industry is big enough that you'll be unlikely to even meet a few of them in other companies ever again and many leave this industry after having a few bad experiences in a few jobs, which happens way too many times in our industry."

Really? Cause after 4 years I'm still in touch with a lot of the QA guys I worked with in Seattle, even though I work in Austin.

And my studio is full of guys who knew / and worked with each other from other studios, even from years ago. It's so prevalent, that I often hear (in the office) people being called "the EA crowd", or the "Vigil crowd", etc... It's almost like a badge of honor for them to have come here together.

I'm really sad to hear that you don't believe that's the case in practice :(... but I do believe there's a human element to it. Just like maintaining good friendships, if person doesn't put in the effort to keep in touch, of course those connections will fall apart.

"Now name how many industries:
(1) Pay no overtime

(2) Expect 60 to 100 hour weeks

(3) Expect 7 days a week working during crunch periods … which can last months.

(4) Throw a lot of staff out of a job, once the company sells the product they have been developing.

My dad worked in the Electrical Engineering field for more than decade, and he had to do lots of overtime as part of the Semi-Conductor Design and Product teams. He frequently stayed 10+ hours a day at work.

I've had friends who have worked Retail, Merchandising, Banking, etc... who have worked long overtime hours, without the same kind of "fun" in their experiences.

There are a lot of Industries in the world that have "Cooperation" in the form of "forced cooperation". To define that, they're companies where you HAVE to work with each other, because, if you want to keep your job, you have to "bare" with the people you work with. I don't see a lot of other Industries where people gladly stay at the office because they actively enjoy the people they work with, and that is what I meant by "cooperation".

You can be in a creative field, and have no one applaud you for your creativity. How many people are going to Cosplay Amazon logos :P, no matter how creative Amazon's technology is implemented? Or organize thousand people Lan parties around Netflix?

Perhaps I'm just incredibly lucky starting out at this studio so early in my career, and because of that, not at all close to being jaded (which I hope I will continue to do long into my career, even if bad things befall me, cause the only way to make the Industry better is to lead by example too!)

I work 40 hours a week, sometimes 45 cause I choose to stay late to get more stuff done. I've yet to have crunch (perhaps I'm lucky?) and I'm at a studio that works on Triple A games. These companies do exist.

I understand there's an aspect that eventually will jade people in this Industry, but I don't think it helps to say "I was once like you, you will see". What if I don't see? How do you know I will go through the route you did :P? Does that make me luckier? Perhaps. Does that make me better? Not at all.

It is what it is. Every time I hear people say that, it reinforces in me the issues within our Industry. People going "/shrug" well this sucks, it's going to happen, so prepare yourself for it, instead of saying "Lets do things to change it, because we are the old crowd and we have a responsibility to the next generation."

Not to say I'm unsympathetic, I do empathize with your story (I worked in contract QA, so I know first hand about getting treated like 2nd class citizens in the gaming industry). The Industry has plenty of issues, and it is a minefield out there. But there are great people out there, who all do want change, and are actively pushing for it, so I'm optimistic that the current and new generation of Game Developers will help turn things around :).

Alan Barton
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@Lincoln Li: "after 4 years"

That's not that long ago at all. Try after 20+ years when people move on, leave the industry, move home, leave the country, change their email accounts a few times and stop using other accounts and have bought 3 or 4 more new phones where you can't find their new phone number. Then over time you will see it becomes easier to loose contact with people.

But then technology for sure has changed communications in the past decade, but its not without its communication problems. (When I started in the games industry, we didn't have email or mobile phones. (Our PC's were 286 EGA DOS machines with no sound card. :)

@Lincoln Li: "These companies do exist."

Of course they do, but they are not the majority. The industry has improved over the years but we still get example after example of badly treated staff.

You maybe in a good company, but often the good times don't last. Your company could go out of business. Your company could grow much larger and then office politics takes over. Companies can get so large that staff often don't see each other in the same company. Many things can change. So enjoy it while you can, but don't dismiss peoples experiences as "jaded". You are falling into a trap with that kind of thinking. It makes you dismiss and not believe what others are trying to tell you from their experiences. That creates an unintentional bias in your thinking. You selectively pick only what you like the sound of.

I've said everything you've said decades ago. I've been in good jobs and bad jobs. In time you will see there is more truth in what I say. Only you stand to gain in your life by listening. You can either choose to learn from the experiences of others or you doom yourself to have to learn from only your own experiences. In my experience, its less painful in life learning from others that have been around before you.

Lincoln Li
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@Alan: "Then over time you will see it becomes easier to loose contact with people."

Easier sure, but all good things come with hard work and a bit of persistence and sacrifice. Keeping in touch with someone for years, even decades, means sometimes committing to that relationship. 4 years isn't long in the Industry for me, yes, but I have friendships from 10 years ago in HS that I still keep in touch with, from half-way and more across the world because I make sure I stay connected.

It is easier now, for sure, but I don't truly believe it was any harder than the past. Communication is simpler, but if someone has the desire to keep in touch, they'll make it happen, regardless of technology.

@Alan: "In time you will see there is more truth in what I say. Only you stand to gain in your life by listening."

I agree with a lot of the points you make, and I don't believe that "learning" is the same as accepting the impending consequence of staying in the industry for decades, as you put it. I already know the truth of what you say, and my point is simple: "If/When its going to happen, I will welcome it, and grow stronger as a Developer from adversity, and fight to help change it."

Your statements heavily suggest to me that you simply want me to accept your POV / Experience as truth, and not really help me gain anything in my life. I've already read your stories (perhaps not quite understood the context of them all, and if I were near you, I would happily hear them over a beer! :D), and I've come to my conclusion, just as any "student" would.

History is destined to repeat itself if you do not learn from the past. I took my lessons very wholeheartedly from my mentors in the Industry, and the colleagues around me, and I choose to have a more positive and optimistic outlook on the future of the Industry, and the direction it will take.

When I say "jaded", I mean it not as a bias, but as a categorization of what I've objectively observed. You (possibly, but I could be wrong, as I often am too) assume that I have ignored and picked out what I want to hear, instead of using my head to analyze and understand why people say the things they do.

@Alan: "The industry has improved over the years but we still get example after example of badly treated staff."

On a more observational level, I don't truly believe the Gaming Industry is as bad as the media makes us out to be... We're just unfortunately always in the spot-light due to our status as an Entertainment business, and anything that happens (just like the lives of Movie Stars) is instantly reported because it "intrigues and fires up" people. People get laid off at other companies all the time, why are we more newsworthy that places like Intel, Microsoft, Nike, etc...?

I find it an unfortunate after-effect of a culture addicted to consuming Entertainment News more than global / industrial news...

Alan Barton
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@"Your statements heavily suggest to me that you simply want me to accept your POV"

It doesn't really matter if you accept my POV or not. I'm simply tired of the way this industry treats people, so I've decided to stand up and talk more openly about some of the bad business practices that are way too common in this industry in the hope of changing the business practices by preventing more people falling for them. There's an old saying, forewarned is forearmed. So if you don't want to learn from the mistakes others have made, then you only have yourself to blame if you then end up repeating their mistakes. Sorry you can't see that is what I am trying to say, but anyway your experiences in life and not my words, will teach you I'm telling the truth.

@"History is destined to repeat itself if you do not learn from the past."

Exactly. But you show you don't really want to "learn from the past."

@"I took my lessons very wholeheartedly from my mentors in the Industry, and the colleagues around me"

I take my lessons from everyone I can. That way there isn't selective bias in who I try to learn from and I can distil out the ones who are manipulators of others in life and they do exist.

@"I choose to have a more positive and optimistic outlook on the future of the Industry, and the direction it will take."

Positive and optimistic are forms of bias. Negative and pessimistic are just as biased, just in the other direction. Bias is an irrelevance and gets in the way of getting to the facts. There is a middle ground. The realist.

@"On a more observational level, I don't truly believe the Gaming Industry is as bad as the media makes us out to be"
If you had experienced the things the media say, you would then believe what the media says. I and many others have experienced these things and so we know its not media talk. Its real and yet you choose in your own words to "I don't truly believe". Your failure mode is therefore a bias of not believing the experiences of others, so "you do not learn from the past". You choose not to believe it.

See the problem? Your overly idealistic view of life, failure to learn from the past and belief in only wanting to hold onto the positive, blinds you from the truth. You can't see the truth, because you choose not to believe it.

In my experience many in our industry suffer from an overly idealistic view of life and it blinds us and everything you are doing and why you fail to see the truth is all a product of idealism. I know, because I've just described the exact same mistakes I've made time and time again in my life. Idealism blinds us. What you see as jaded isn't. Its realistic based on facts. I've paid the price for my idealism. I speak of my experiences now to try to help others, shame you don't believe that, but then its a fact of life, some people don't want to be helped. That's why the mistakes of the past keep getting repeated.

So wouldn't it be a better world if we could all use technology (like the Internet) to help change the future by finally learning from the mistakes of the past? Maybe that's my idealism again blinding me from the truth that some people most likely can't be helped because they choose not to listen. But at least I'm trying to make a difference. My words won't help me, its too late for me. I've wasted 30 years of my life believing way too many lying two faced greedy closed-minded bosses. But at least I can try to provide the information needed to help some people avoid the mistakes of the past.

Its a shame you choose to not to see that.

Lincoln Li
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*edit* deleted reply comments... apparently I started a new thread... /sigh...

Greg Scheel
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Game of paychecks!

Doru Apreotesei
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Maybe if they hadn't paid for all those overtime meals they would've still been in the black...

Alan Barton
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Oh yes, being paid in free pizzas ...