This may seem like a problem with the service, as newer games that deserve to be on Steam most likely won't be able to quickly build up the votes needed simply through Greenlight. Yet this is most likely exactly what Valve was aiming for. At the end of the day, even if you have the most incredible game around, if you don't already have a fanbase of people who are going to buy it, why would Valve want to stock it? This isn't charity - it's a business.
There are issues with the system itself too. Game creators are able to delete comments left under their game on its Greenlight page, meaning they can simply remove all the negative comments and leave the positive ones. This was clearly not the intention that Valve meant it for, but it is an area which needs clearing up pronto.| David Amador |
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I agree with that.
Just one creator is awful. The deleting comments can have impact too. And also the non existent discoverability means we have to "spam" other websites, like I'm about to do, by asking you guys to check my own game :P http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92920748 |
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| E McNeill |
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"This may seem like a problem with the service, as newer games that deserve to be on Steam most likely won't be able to quickly build up the votes needed simply through Greenlight. Yet this is most likely exactly what Valve was aiming for."
Why start with criticism of this, then? The other points at the end ("indie games are lame" etc.) seem far more worrisome to me. |
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| Eric McQuiggan |
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I wish there was an indifference button, I don't want the game to appear in my feed, but I don't have any strong feelings either way.
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| Michael Flad |
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I think the random list is a pretty decent mode for now - otherwise it would just become another pretty static top 20 list. If there are enough voters and a decent random distribution, the best games will still get the most votes and Valve obviously will have the sorted view internally.
That said, we don't know what the backend does. Even though it seems to be a random list, it's possible the backend includes all kinds of information when creating the list. So the most popular titles may very well be on the front page more often than the least popular, just not all the time in a static list. |
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| Greg Lobanov |
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My main gripe is that there's a downvote button at all--why should any game be actively PREVENTED from getting on Steam? I thought it was about the community supporting what they liked, but it feels more like a lion's den to devs like me.
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| Robert Schmidt |
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Steam could setup some explicit reward deal in which players are given points for trying new games and rating them. The points could then be put towards the purchase of games. You get extra points if you are the first to rate the game. Turn reviewing games into a game. Players have a collection of points that they can "invest" in games. The amount you invest in the game is your rating. The better a game does the more points you get. This addresses the issue were individuals rush to rate every game quickly to get points but do not provide a thorough evaluation.
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| Todd Boyd |
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"Click here for indie games"
*click* ... "What the hell, these are all indie games! How lame!" |
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| Mike Motschy |
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They should have a pre purchase button, the games with the most purchases will get released with guaranteed sales. That way you won't have "HEY Everyone/Family/multiple accounts vote for my game". You will know they are serious about wanting your game.
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| Aaron Fowler |
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I think it's too early to make any accurate speculations. As I'm sure the system will be molded and become more honed overtime (At least I hope so!). They do need to implement some more filter options though.
Also, many people are posting game titles that are still very WIP. It would be nice to have some kind of filter that developers can categorize their game under either as a WIP or a finished title. As it is now, there's a lot of crap even from the so called "finished games" and it's a little hard to distinguish what is still a prototype with placeholder artwork, and what is actually trying to be passed off as a finished game. The only way developers can communicate that right now is by stating it in their description. But there should be a more efficient way of communicating that. People should know even before they click on the title from the list, whether the game is still a WIP or is "finished". |
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| Kyle Redd |
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Regarding the issue with allowing game creators to delete community comments at will - I don't think this is as big of a deal as you imply. Even for the most obscure entries, the comments section fills up at a very rapid rate. It would literally be a full-time job for someone to sit there and manually delete every single negative comment that comes in, if that was their intention. Anyone serious about getting their game on Steam would consider that a complete waste of time.
I think a minor improvement that might help would be to require a reason be given for each comment deleted (offensive, vulgar, etc.); that way if someone is found to have abused the system to simply delete unfavorable comments, they could be suspended or banned. |
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| Sherman Chin |
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Please help to up-vote our JRPG game, Alpha Kimori Great Doubt Episode One, on Steam Greenlight too:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=93036357 It's really hard for an indie game developer to get noticed but I guess that is what Valve wants - us indie developers posting on websites like this to drive traffic to Steam itself. |
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| Aleksander Adamkiewicz |
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Greenlight is a farce.
How can valve come up with this concept and not make it work properly. |
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| Tom Spilman |
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Our game ARMED! is on there... it is a working game that is a good fit for Steam, but it is buried in a list of fake games.
The discoverability on Greenlight is thru randomization of the games list and thru developers getting the word out on their own. http://bit.ly/Greenlight-ARMED |
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| Louis-Felix Cauchon |
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My game is there and is now part of the Greenlight Jewels : http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92508820&searchtext=
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| Mike Jenkins |
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I think collections are the perfect solution for discoverability.
At the rate the number of projects is climbing, there may be a thousand games to look through. Obviously the majority of people, even indie game fans, are not going to examine each one. The 'hardcore' people, however, just might. It is up to these fans and journalists to create lists of what they find appealing, and share it with those interested. If you're one of the 95%+ people uninterested in sifting through crap, then browse a few collections. Find one with a few games you like, then continue down their list. Greenlight is designed to be a community experience and this is a community solution. If you are into indie games enough to look through them all, do your part and make a list. If not, take advantage of our work! http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92971960 |
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| jaime kuroiwa |
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I have yet to see a crowdsourcing solution that works (i.e. bring the best to the front); They always seem to be inhabited by fanbois and c*ckblockers. I think it's cool enough that Valve offered the service in the first place.
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| John Flush |
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I looked through them yesterday. I swear I saw the same game on numerous times and I had to open the game page every time to vote it up or down. Some of the games I'm already familiar with and I didn't have a good way to just say 'yes' to it, so I found it largely cumbersome.
It already had 300+ on there and I only bothered with the first 150 or so before actually playing games instead. That problem will only get worse. |
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| Jonathan Jennings |
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I actually looked up incredipede after reading this article, it definitely is geting my vote
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| Yuliya Geikhman |
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I think it's a good thing that you can't organize the game by most votes - that would really be rewarding the already popular games. It would create the mentality of "this game has a lot of upvotes, it must be good" and diminish the chance to see the lesser known titles.
Still it does sound like the system needs some tweaking before it can really work.. |
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| Lex Allen |
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"Game creators are able to delete comments left under their game on its Greenlight page, meaning they can simply remove all the negative comments and leave the positive ones. This was clearly not the intention that Valve meant it for, but it is an area which needs clearing up pronto."
Actually, I think this WAS what it was meant for. I shouldn't have to leave abusive comments on my page, especially from people that haven't even played the game. I think Valve did this on purpose because it wasn't available initially. The biggest problem is the downvote button. There are too many people with miserable lives that will downvote all of the games or download games that they think are girly or whatever. We should only be worried about audiences that want the games, not audiences that don't want them. |
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| Mitchell Fujino |
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It's 2012, isn't this a solved problem?
Copy the same algorithm Reddit uses (http://www.evanmiller.org/how-not-to-sort-by-average-rating.html). |
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| Maria Jayne |
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I think valve are being very naive with this setup, they are already having to delete false submissions made from existing IP or simply fake trolling.
You just can't trust people who have nothing to lose, and steam accounts are free. |
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| Aaron San Filippo |
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I think it's important to realize that the primary purpose of the system is to make *Valve* aware of games that should be on Steam, not to become a shiny new app store that lets us find games to play. With that in mind, perhaps it's a blessing in disguise that it doesn't sort by popularity? Maybe getting more eyes on games that haven't had eyes on them yet through random selection will actually be the best way to go?
The downvote button does seem like troll-bait - but perhaps with some kind of a user rank system like some sites have, it will take on more meaning and usefulness. It seems like a natural way to make things that truly don't belong here disappear quickly. I'd also love to see some kind of a comment upvote/downvote system. The "This looks like a flash game" comments are ridiculous. For our project - I think it's fair to say that putting our game on Greenlight was a good idea - despite the fact that almost every comment has been negative, and we have a 65% or so negative ratio. I think it gives us a useful indication of what would happen if our game appeared on Steam right now, and tells us that we need to work on our presentation a bit more. |
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| R. Hunter Gough |
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Good article, and some great points that I hadn't thought of. I disagree with your closing statement that "those devs who are just starting out needn't bother applying", though; just tossing your game in there gets it exposure (especially right now while the service is new and there are a lot of people checking it out), and the fact that there's no "expiration date" on submissions means that if it takes 10 years for your game to get enough upvotes to pass, then, well, it takes 10 years. But then your game's on Steam!! Beats leaving it rotting on your hard drive.
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| Tyvon Thomas |
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Wasn't there only about a month of testing on the service before it was launched? Big mistake on Valve's part because Greenlight's current release is really, really bad.
I commend Valve for wanting to give more power to the community, but launching a service like this with almost no moderation systems in place? That was asking for trouble. Gamers are very close-minded. If there's a game, downloadable package, or even something as small as something a developer does with their own free time, that they don't like (or aren't interested in), they will be vocal about it, oftentimes to the extent of being malicious. This is just something that comes with the power of internet anonymity. Adding onto that, giving Gamers the ability to "downvote" peoples' hard work with something as simple as a mouse click only gives them more incentive to wreck your day over something as simple as a game not fitting their specific tastes. Gamers don't look at Greenlight and think about objective quality, they only think about what appeals to them. (and since everyone else is linking their Greenlight projects, I'll link my project, Navigator. It's a hybrid arcade-puzzle game based around survival and score-chasing. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92944224) |
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| Bruno Patatas |
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This is not a comment directly targeted to the article, but based on the comments, the last thing I would like to see is Gamasutra comments becoming a place to spam links to games that are being voted on the platform. This is *not* the place for that. Gamasutra is to promote healthy discussions regarding the art & business of videogames.
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| Mitchell Burton |
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The goal of any Dev submitting a game to Greenlight is not to make it to the front page... win lots of money. Your goal is to get your game noticed by Valve. Sure, winning the popularity contest may help with that, but it is not the be all and end all.
On Valve’s side the goal is clear, to get the community to sort the wheat from the chaff. Thus saving them time and money, and hopefully not missing an opportunity to sell a game that could make good money on Steam because of poor signal to noise. Valve will look at the "front page" games, but those are probably the games that would have a far chance of making it through the current submission process. What Valve wants is a human operated spam filter on their submissions@steam inbox. So Valve are going to use Steam users as a source of information to be data mined. It'll be rather crude at first, but as time goes on and Valve develops its abilities I would be willing to bet that they will use all sorts of methods to identify candidates. Number of up votes, up votes / down votes, total number of votes, page views per vote, etc. If a game receives 100,000 down votes and 50,000 up votes Valve will still want to take a look. 100,000 people would not buy that game, but 50,000 other people would. It may not be popular, but Steam does serve niche markets too. It may even turn out that after a while Valve identifies a group of users whose up votes are good predictors of good sales and start following those user's actions as another source of information. Even text mining the comments could be used. Valve seems to be a company that is not afraid to experiment, internally at least, and its people can work on what ever tickles their fancy. We can't rule anything out. My point is that the goal of Greenlight is quite different than the other systems under discussion. Greenlight's purpose is to provide data, information, metrics, whatever you want to call it, to Valve. Discoverability? That's your problem. |
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| Aaron Fowler |
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It has been suggested on the forums for Valve to put a small submission fee to help weed out the trolls/not serious projects. I'm interested to know what everyone's thoughts are on this?
http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/discussion/864944662947079770/?appid=765 |
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| Jane Castle |
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I am wondering what if a game has a lot of up votes because it has great screen shots and a cut scene but the final project is a disappointment? Will Valve reject the game even if it has a lot of votes?
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| Ron Dippold |
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For what it's worth, the best way to browse is not with Steam's own browser, which won't let you have multiple tabs (a constant source of frustration). Use any tabbed browser to go to the Greenlight page, make sure you log in first, then just ctrl-click any games that look interesting to open a tab for them. Much smoother.
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| Kellam Templeton-Smith |
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I had an extremely hard time navigating it-Steam as a content portal functions horrendously (what is up with the inability to preserve what page I'm on/not have it reset where I was if I choose to press the back button), and this extends to Greenlight.
I think it'll mainly come down to Indie Devs still having to do the legwork to promote it, but get those clickthru's to travel over to Steam and upvote it. |
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| Bruno Xavier |
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For me the most stupid thing about Greenlight is this:
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff408/BrUnOXaVIeR/RlyValve.jpg Why on earth would Valve to constrain people trying to help?!? ... Really Valve? Rly?? |
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