Features

"It's funny... But we actually own the trademark to the word Messiah™!"
An Interview with David Perry of Shiny Entertainment

Dave Perry is the man behind Shiny Entertainment. Shiny is the company that produced several hit titles including Earthworm Jim and MDK. He's being featured in the upcoming Computer Game Developers' Conference as a panel member in their "The Legends of Computer Game Design" discussion. As a pre-cursor to the discussion panel, we've decided to ask Dave Perry a few questions about himself, what makes Shiny tick, and some of their upcoming titles (notably Messiah, Stunt RC Copter and Wild 9s).

Let's start with the details of this year's Computer Game Developers' Conference. You've been included in the discussion panel called "The Legends of Computer Game Design". What does it mean to you to be considered a legend? Do you think the title does you justice?

I am certainly no legend... Unless you use the "Old" connotation which makes me more than a veteran. I've got the scars to prove it.

I must admit I always look forward to meeting the "stars" of our business... I used to buy all the games and look up to these people that I now get to meet...

How do you view the other members of the panel (Sid Meier, Ron Gilbert and Johnny Wilson)? Are you all friendly with each other?

No, I have not met the other members before, so it will be very interesting to get a chance to chat.

How important do you think it is to hold a Computer Game Developers' Conference each year? What are the problems associated with holding events like the Computer Game Developers' Conference?

Vital... The problem is that many developers cannot afford to attend, or their publisher won't let them go. The equivalent in England is "Develop", it is trying hard to get going and become the CGDC of Europe.

Deadlines also stop a lot of people taking time off... So it's an uphill battle for the conference organizers. I do my best to support them.

What are your plans for the conference? Will you be making any significant announcements about future titles such as Messiah, Stunt RC Copter or Wild 9's? What else will you be doing at the conference?

I am speaking for 1 hour on the Messiah technology in a speech called "Messiah, What you may or may not believe", and then the panel for about one hour. The rest of the time I spend learning, meeting other developers and having a beer with friends.

<< MDK >>

You've reached a very high status in the game developer world. Being featured as a "Legend" at the CGDC is quite an accomplishment. However we'd like to discuss the events in your life that lead up to this. How did you get your start in the game industry?

I started writing books on games before games could be bought. In those days you had to actually type the entire game in from a book (without mistakes) and then hours later, you finally got to play. (Or start looking for your mistakes) This looking at program code and fixing mistakes was a great way to gently learn programming.

I am very well known in Europe as the machines I programmed only sold in Europe. Now that we focus on consoles and PC I am amazed how quickly my team has been embraced by the American press. (Over 60 covers for our last game MDK!)

What was it about the game industry that you found attractive? Was it something that you always wanted to get involved in, your dream career?

I lived in the middle of the countryside in Northern Ireland. It was cold and pretty boring, so that only made playing games even MORE addictive. Then when I started making money in School from simple programming, I could afford to buy just about every game released. That was why I became hooked. Finally I was offered a real video game programmer job, I burnt my books.

Who was your single biggest influence, as far as game design goes? Why?

Coming from England, my biggest influence was a company called "Ultimate Play the Game"... It was a company that was owned by Tim and Chris Stamper. They did everything differently... That made their work very fresh and inspiring. Today they own RARE and the continue to impress me.

What would you say your background is in? Art, programming, etc.? Also, how closely do you work with your development teams?

Programming... But I also appreciate animation and artwork. I have been VERY fortunate in working closely with some of the best in the industry and they have taught me a lot about their individual jobs. So I can talk with them on their terms and understand their frustrations.

It's kinda funky, but many Presidents have no idea what their staff are doing. That's really bad!

What would you recommend to aspiring game developers who want to get into the game industry?

Work your way up! - I started at $5,000 a year as a trainee programmer. It takes time and most of all PASSION. There is a BIG difference between someone who just gets the job done and someone who stays all night to make it perfect so he is proud of it.

What's the easiest way for someone to get their "foot in the door" at Shiny?

They need to show innovation in code, art or animation. We get resumes every day with poor corridors and spaceships. We need to see design flair, an understanding of movement, space and lighting. I like to see new things, not tables and chairs, but interesting worlds.

The technology we have at Shiny is so advanced, every flaw shows. Artists that apply need to be able to hang with experts. Same with the programmers. The conversations at Shiny get VERY technical.

Let's talk about your upcoming projects. Messiah seems to have had a large cloud of controversy surrounding it since its conception. Would you say you're shooting for that Marilyn Manson style "shock-value" when you're creating the game?

No, I only kick off titles that I believe will stand out. Messiah WILL stand out in nearly every way. It's not for shock, it's for our own interest.

Wild 9 with the first TORTURE weapon is a great example. It's the first game that you can grab your enemy and hold him underwater until he drowns or hold him in thick sooty black smoke until he chokes to death.

<< Messiah >>

Do you find your current "shock" marketing campaign effective?

Our campaign is very tasteful at the moment. The first advert is just the word Messiah with the cherub's face. The second is the dictionary meaning.

I had a priest call the office recently saying he had heard about "Messiah" and asked if we could make a Samson and Delilah game for him.

It's funny... But we actually own the trademark to the word Messiah!

It's interesting that a Priest actually called you - does Messiah target a particular spiritual belief system, or is it simply a fantasy adventure game that shouldn't be examined any deeper than its top layer?

Religion is not important in our game... It's really good Vs evil.. The cool thing is that you do get to meet Satan himself at the end... And boy is he disgusting.

Would you ever draw the line at a certain idea? For example, you have touted the abilities to kill prostitutes and to possess people as being key in Messiah. Are there any ideas you had that were simply too controversial to make it in?

No... The major hook to the game has not been explained yet as it is very controversial and I don't want it copied. The possession of anybody in the game just makes the game different as there are 1,000,000 different ways to play. That increases strategy and stops the game just being linear. It's also fun to wear peoples bodies like armor or camouflage.

The baby you play is called Bob, he can dive into the SOULS of his enemies... If you are inside when they die, then you die... So you gotta dump the body when it gets chewed up or burnt.

Messiah's new real-time tessellation/deformation routines have raised a few eyelids in the industry. How much more realistic are games in general going to get in the future, and how will Messiah's graphic engine help the industry achieve that?

Our technology is just a first step towards talking living breathing people. It's all down to the power of the computers/consoles. The more powerful, the closer we get. It's funny how things keep improving, and you hear people saying "It would be hard to top that!". It will be topped this year, next year and every year after. That's what keeps us all so excited about this business.

Would you ever fund a project just as a "test", to see if a concept works?

Stunt Copter is living proof.

Lets go with that. Your model helicopter simulation, Stunt RC Copter (formally Fly by Wire) seems to be highly unconventional. From the basic game idea itself, to the 2 person development team, there seems to be a lot of interesting practices going on. Do you like the idea of stretching game conventions and experimenting at Shiny?

I am very lucky to have the backing of Interplay. They understand the concept that is "Shiny". Stunt Copter was just an R&D project to simulate airflow physics. The fact that people kept playing it was what turned it in to a game. Because Interplay invests in research, that's why Shiny can make new genres.

<< Stunt Copter (formally Fly by Wire) >>

So if Stunt Copter was an R&D project, you must be very interested in game physics. How important are physics in Shiny games?

Real world physics are important, but not as important as "feel". Sometimes people make things TOO real. This means that in a driving game, your car might keep crashing every two seconds... Then the programmer says "Well it's real". Yeah, it might be real, but it's not fun! So a balance must be reached.

How do you decide if one game concept is better than another? What factors do you take into account?

If people stop to play it every time they go to the bathroom, I know we are on to something. Then I just try to work out what!

I like to be able to describe the game in a sentence... Not "It's got lots of levels" or "It's got real actors". Thinks like "You can shoot someone in the eye from a mile away" or "The first game that lets you actually torture your enemies."

What is Shiny's single biggest goal when creating a new game? New technologies, interesting concepts, artistic flair? What would you attribute your success to?

Our vision statement is "To create games the world wishes existed." It takes a combination of art, music, animation, ideas, concepts to make something fresh. All of our games have an unique angle, they are the sort of games I would buy if someone else made them.

If we did not have a fresh angle, I would not kick off the project.

The fact that Shiny has grown recently is due to the fact that we had an abundance of new ideas in 1997.

What would have to happen in order for you to cancel a Shiny game project? What are the biggest obstacles in game development, from the actual design treatment to the development to the marketing aspects?

The biggest problem is finding passionate staff that can make our funky Ideas come true... When we find them, we hold on tight. That said, you gotta kiss a lot of frogs. I would only kill a project if it became impossible to find the right staff to pull it off.

How big is the average development team, and how long is your average game development cycle?

The average size is about 10 at Shiny and they get about 18 months. Sometimes longer, sometimes shorter. It all depends on the team dynamics.

Earthworm Jim took us about 1 year, same for MDK.

Do you think it's wise to develop for a variety of different software platforms? What are the advantages/disadvantages in multi-platform development?

We cover the major ones as we don't want to just be a one trick pony. It also keeps us in touch with all new technologies.

That said, when new machines like the 3DO or Jaguar come along, some people always dive on board and lose their company because it was a bad decision.

So we are always cautious.

What would be your ideal game system?

I never got onto that Virtual Reality bandwagon... But it really will be cool when it happens properly. Headsets must be light, comfortable, without straining the eyes. Each eye must have a separate high resolution display running at 60 frames per second at an absolute minimum. Add to that speech recognition, 3D sound and completely analog controls and then games would radically change again. It will happen, it's just a matter of time. I can't wait!

Lets move back to a more personal level. Do you agree with the recent trend of popularizing game developers like movie stars? Do you think giving game designers a "star status" is a generally good idea?

Absolutely... I have tons of respect for people like John Carmack and Sid Meier. Can you imagine if you had never heard of them and had no idea what they were doing next? That would not be good.

I do believe that team logos are more important to gamers than Publisher logos. But then again, I am biased. :)

Personally, which games do you believe are Shiny's best work, and why?

Shiny has only been going a short while... It's funny, because in America people say: "Why talk about us, we only did MDK and Earthworm Jim". The realities are that our team members have been around since the industry began and we have made hundreds of games. I personally have programmed and Shipped around 37 titles.

My favorite is still Earthworm Jim because it was so fun to make a game without any restrictions.

<< EarthWorm Jim >>

Character design seems to be very important in your games. Is there a personal reason for this, or is it done because it works well in terms of business (cartoon shows, plastic toys)?

Characters make you care... Even if you are in a driving game for an example... There is a big difference between being a metal car and being a little delicate guy driving. If Shiny was to make a driving game, you would be the DRIVER, not the car.

I love to see what is happening to "my guy", if somebody sneaks up behind him, I want to see it happen, I don't just want my screen to turn red when I die.

If I fall a long way and break my legs, I want to see that, I don't just want to hear a sound effect.

We just come from a different angle.

What else would you like to accomplish with your life? What are your goals for the future?

I would like to get a movie made based on our games... I would also like a vacation sometime. :)

Thanks a lot for the interview Dave, we really appreciate it!

Robin Ward was the creator of the popular site dedicated to video games and their creation, videogamedesign.com. Since then, he has moved on to bigger and better things, like writing independently for other web sites, including Gamasutra.

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